1911 Achillies Heel
- Thread starter 4thHorseman
- Start date
I shoot IDPA and have seen all types of pistols fail - 1911's, Glocks, SIG's, Beretta's, etc.
The parts I've seen fail on a standard 1911 are the bushing, plunger tube, and extractor. The extractor and plunger tube are often noticable as they deteriorate. These parts didn't actually break but instead needed adjustment to return to proper function. The bushing problems I've seen were actual failures and all have been without warning.
I've seen about the same number of Glocks fail as I have 1911's. The parts I've seen fail on stock Glocks are the trigger spring, slide lock spring (the spring that supports the disassembly lever), and the plastic front sight. The front sight often loosens with hard use but is easily replaced with a more durable part. The spring failures were without warning.
The parts I've seen fail on a standard 1911 are the bushing, plunger tube, and extractor. The extractor and plunger tube are often noticable as they deteriorate. These parts didn't actually break but instead needed adjustment to return to proper function. The bushing problems I've seen were actual failures and all have been without warning.
I've seen about the same number of Glocks fail as I have 1911's. The parts I've seen fail on stock Glocks are the trigger spring, slide lock spring (the spring that supports the disassembly lever), and the plastic front sight. The front sight often loosens with hard use but is easily replaced with a more durable part. The spring failures were without warning.
The 1911 has in MHO three weak point; magazines; extractors and staked plunger tubes.
On the magazines it is usually deformed feed lips or the base giving enough so that the mag inserts too far and jams the gun up tight. This could be fixed with sturdier magazines that have a built-in metal stop ledge or rim on the bottom so that it cannot go in too far.
The extractors can be finicky. Bill Wilson may have solved this problem with a conventional type extractor on his poly modle (KZ something). I don't know of anyoone who has experience with one, but it would seem a logical fix.
Staked plunger tubes are not necessary, they can be machine as part of the whole frame.
The 1911 is a great gun (love mine) but it could use a little modernization. I have been to a number of high speed schools and shoot IDPA quite a bit. The fast majority of guns used are 1911s and Glocks. The 1911s malfunction, break, or jam on a regular basis because of equipment problems. Equipment enduced malfunctions in a Glock are pretty rare. I can't shoot my Glock as well as my 1911, but guess which one I carry and bet my life on every day. I MHO there are only four rules about selecting a carry gun.
1. Must be reliable
2. Must be reliable
3. Must be reliable
4. See rules 1 through 3
In my experience the pistols that seem the most reliable on the line, are in order; Revolvers, Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, then 1911s.
I am sure there are other very reliable pistols such as H&Ks, Khars, etc., but I don't see many of them on the firing line so I don't get to see them actually perform. Anytime I see someone have a malfunction, I make a mental note of what type and model of gun it was. On Smiths and Berettas a see a high percentage of their malfunctions as shooter induced by hitting the slide mounted safety when they did not intend to.
I think some of the problems with 1911 are people trying to tune them too tight or trick them out. I am sure a completely reliable 1911 could be had, but for me the piggy bank doesn't have the available funds at this time - however it is on my "To Do List".
Glocks are not without their problems. I think their weak points are poor magazine springs, not fully supported chambers sub-power recoil springs, and the trigger return spring.
I side stepped these by using Wolff mag springs, a conventially rifled after market barrel with fully supported chamber, stronger recoil spring, and a New York type trigger return with a 3.5lb connector.
I have personally only experience one malfunction with my Glock in about 10K+ rounds (G23) and that was caused by a weak mag spring. I have seen several Glock trigger return spring break, but it is possible that they were self installed backwards, which does play on thier weak point. You can still shoot the gun with a broken trigger return spring but have to manually reset the trigger (push it forward)
Never had a Kaboom, but have friends that have. I belive this is caused #1 by the unsupported chamber, #2 by the fact that the Glock will fire further out of battery than most autos and #3 possibley a weak recoil spring that otherwise should have completly closed and locked up the slide into battery.
This turned out to be longer than I though!
Love 1911s, but depend on my Glock
TEX
On the magazines it is usually deformed feed lips or the base giving enough so that the mag inserts too far and jams the gun up tight. This could be fixed with sturdier magazines that have a built-in metal stop ledge or rim on the bottom so that it cannot go in too far.
The extractors can be finicky. Bill Wilson may have solved this problem with a conventional type extractor on his poly modle (KZ something). I don't know of anyoone who has experience with one, but it would seem a logical fix.
Staked plunger tubes are not necessary, they can be machine as part of the whole frame.
The 1911 is a great gun (love mine) but it could use a little modernization. I have been to a number of high speed schools and shoot IDPA quite a bit. The fast majority of guns used are 1911s and Glocks. The 1911s malfunction, break, or jam on a regular basis because of equipment problems. Equipment enduced malfunctions in a Glock are pretty rare. I can't shoot my Glock as well as my 1911, but guess which one I carry and bet my life on every day. I MHO there are only four rules about selecting a carry gun.
1. Must be reliable
2. Must be reliable
3. Must be reliable
4. See rules 1 through 3
In my experience the pistols that seem the most reliable on the line, are in order; Revolvers, Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, then 1911s.
I am sure there are other very reliable pistols such as H&Ks, Khars, etc., but I don't see many of them on the firing line so I don't get to see them actually perform. Anytime I see someone have a malfunction, I make a mental note of what type and model of gun it was. On Smiths and Berettas a see a high percentage of their malfunctions as shooter induced by hitting the slide mounted safety when they did not intend to.
I think some of the problems with 1911 are people trying to tune them too tight or trick them out. I am sure a completely reliable 1911 could be had, but for me the piggy bank doesn't have the available funds at this time - however it is on my "To Do List".
Glocks are not without their problems. I think their weak points are poor magazine springs, not fully supported chambers sub-power recoil springs, and the trigger return spring.
I side stepped these by using Wolff mag springs, a conventially rifled after market barrel with fully supported chamber, stronger recoil spring, and a New York type trigger return with a 3.5lb connector.
I have personally only experience one malfunction with my Glock in about 10K+ rounds (G23) and that was caused by a weak mag spring. I have seen several Glock trigger return spring break, but it is possible that they were self installed backwards, which does play on thier weak point. You can still shoot the gun with a broken trigger return spring but have to manually reset the trigger (push it forward)
Never had a Kaboom, but have friends that have. I belive this is caused #1 by the unsupported chamber, #2 by the fact that the Glock will fire further out of battery than most autos and #3 possibley a weak recoil spring that otherwise should have completly closed and locked up the slide into battery.
This turned out to be longer than I though!
Love 1911s, but depend on my Glock
TEX
Mo_Zam_Beek
New member
Wow - such an emotional topic!
I like 1911's and I agree with some of what SVT has said. Namely, if you pay a grand for it - it damm well better work!
I also agree that anything made by humans is prone to fail.
And further, every weapon has trade offs.
I have owned 1911's - I don't now.
I own a glock but only because of its size - G27.
I prefer HK. My .45 F has over 15,000 rounds through it - all original parts (except mag springs) and has yet to have a failure of anykind. I am also a maintence slouch. I do not like to clean guns. My .45C has had 3 failures due to light primer strikes (cuz it was dirty - and the bobbed hammer is lighter). However, b/c it is a DA/SA - it is a matter of pulling the trigger a second time.(yes I always pull the trigger a second time before I tap/rack/bang)
Shoot / carry what you want and what inspires confidence within you. Regardless of what you carry - remember ALL things created by humans can fail. Therefore, you need to be well versed in what to do if it does not go bang.
One of my biggest complaints about a 1911 for CCW - weight and ammo capacity.
Good luck - shoot what you want
I like 1911's and I agree with some of what SVT has said. Namely, if you pay a grand for it - it damm well better work!
I also agree that anything made by humans is prone to fail.
And further, every weapon has trade offs.
I have owned 1911's - I don't now.
I own a glock but only because of its size - G27.
I prefer HK. My .45 F has over 15,000 rounds through it - all original parts (except mag springs) and has yet to have a failure of anykind. I am also a maintence slouch. I do not like to clean guns. My .45C has had 3 failures due to light primer strikes (cuz it was dirty - and the bobbed hammer is lighter). However, b/c it is a DA/SA - it is a matter of pulling the trigger a second time.(yes I always pull the trigger a second time before I tap/rack/bang)
Shoot / carry what you want and what inspires confidence within you. Regardless of what you carry - remember ALL things created by humans can fail. Therefore, you need to be well versed in what to do if it does not go bang.
One of my biggest complaints about a 1911 for CCW - weight and ammo capacity.
Good luck - shoot what you want
I carry what works...
And what works for me is a 1911. I guess I'm in poor company with the likes of Col. Cooper, Clint Smith, Bill Wilson, and the like! A gun is a mechanical device. My 1911's run. My Baers have never jammed, unless I mechanically make them jam as in simulating class 1, 2, and 3, malfunctions. News to the the novice--if you think you can have a perfect mechanical device, you are dreaming. Get a gun that works, then learn how to clear it quickly and effectively. Training makes me better, not a better polymer pistol.
And what works for me is a 1911. I guess I'm in poor company with the likes of Col. Cooper, Clint Smith, Bill Wilson, and the like! A gun is a mechanical device. My 1911's run. My Baers have never jammed, unless I mechanically make them jam as in simulating class 1, 2, and 3, malfunctions. News to the the novice--if you think you can have a perfect mechanical device, you are dreaming. Get a gun that works, then learn how to clear it quickly and effectively. Training makes me better, not a better polymer pistol.
Ah yes, Glocks are flawless. Must be why my 56 year old carry gun goes bang ever damn time even with truncated cone FMJ or JHP. It will choke if I say stuff a USA mag in it, so yep that's the weak link. Extractors can be tuned on new guns and plunger tubes can be soldered. I do understand SVTNates reasoning, thats why I keep 3 more 1911's and a flawless BHP just in case. And hell I even love my AR POS rifle. See I do own a gun with plastic parts.
Glock_Racer
New member
My wallet! 
Oh my! I am concerned about this now!
I have had a Colt for over 6 years now, should I go get a Glock? I need advice here guys I certainly don’t want my gun to fail on me when I need it most. My Colt has worked so far, but I have only put a little under ten thousand rounds through it. I haven’t gotten up into the hundreds of thousands of rounds yet like most Glock owners have. I once managed to put 500 plus rounds through it without cleaning it at all and it didn’t fail but it sounds like I should expect it to go for over a thousand without cleaning. Is that right? Oh and I did have a problem for a short time while I tried a Shok-Buff. Kept making my commander fail to feed. I sure don’t want it to fail when I need the gun. I guess maybe I made the right call then to stop using a Shok-Buff, should I make the right call now and mothball this obsolete firearm? Man guys, I just don’t know, I mean I paid less than $500 for this gun and I always thought it worked ok but there seems to be a lot of consensus that these things will fail when it counts, or I should spend thousand of dollars on it to ensure it will always work. I need advice here guys.
I have had a Colt for over 6 years now, should I go get a Glock? I need advice here guys I certainly don’t want my gun to fail on me when I need it most. My Colt has worked so far, but I have only put a little under ten thousand rounds through it. I haven’t gotten up into the hundreds of thousands of rounds yet like most Glock owners have. I once managed to put 500 plus rounds through it without cleaning it at all and it didn’t fail but it sounds like I should expect it to go for over a thousand without cleaning. Is that right? Oh and I did have a problem for a short time while I tried a Shok-Buff. Kept making my commander fail to feed. I sure don’t want it to fail when I need the gun. I guess maybe I made the right call then to stop using a Shok-Buff, should I make the right call now and mothball this obsolete firearm? Man guys, I just don’t know, I mean I paid less than $500 for this gun and I always thought it worked ok but there seems to be a lot of consensus that these things will fail when it counts, or I should spend thousand of dollars on it to ensure it will always work. I need advice here guys.
"Are you telling me that a Kimber at 10,000 rounds will still be like new, using all the original parts"... SVTNATE
I have to chide in on the serious side here and echo that you likely do not know what you are talking about based upon that statement.
My Kimber Classic Custom has well over 10,000 rounds through it without a single failure of any kind. The only modifications have been a Pachmayr wraparound grip, hex-head grip screws and the plastic mainspring housing being replaced. All else is original. The only wear is some of the black oxide finish worn from the grip area with no signs of rust. It has never, and I mean never failed to chamber, fire or extract. I USE this gun. My target model has over 5,000 rounds and is very likely to keep right on ticking like it's fixed sighted brother. Same mild aesthetic changes with no modification to the firearm proper. I defy you to get either of them to produce a solitary rattle.
At about 12,500 rounds I finally thought I should replace the recoil spring so in went a Wilson 18.5 lb based upon recommendation of some 1911 folks who would have went through several changes by the same watermark. I may have the extractor replaced soon as preventative maintenance but surely not because it is giving any indication of impending failure or excessive wear.
Perhaps you should stick to sports cars since you know so many people that own them other than yourself.
I own Kimbers. Just basic bottom end models. I can tell you firsthand that they function as well as or superior to the Glocks owned by my shooting compadres. I can assure you that each of them cannot help but have a grudging respect for these 1911's that have been in service, fired more - problem free, longer than many of them have possessed their current carry choices.
Have to call B.S. on this one as I have tread the path you say does not exist.
I have to chide in on the serious side here and echo that you likely do not know what you are talking about based upon that statement.
My Kimber Classic Custom has well over 10,000 rounds through it without a single failure of any kind. The only modifications have been a Pachmayr wraparound grip, hex-head grip screws and the plastic mainspring housing being replaced. All else is original. The only wear is some of the black oxide finish worn from the grip area with no signs of rust. It has never, and I mean never failed to chamber, fire or extract. I USE this gun. My target model has over 5,000 rounds and is very likely to keep right on ticking like it's fixed sighted brother. Same mild aesthetic changes with no modification to the firearm proper. I defy you to get either of them to produce a solitary rattle.
At about 12,500 rounds I finally thought I should replace the recoil spring so in went a Wilson 18.5 lb based upon recommendation of some 1911 folks who would have went through several changes by the same watermark. I may have the extractor replaced soon as preventative maintenance but surely not because it is giving any indication of impending failure or excessive wear.
Perhaps you should stick to sports cars since you know so many people that own them other than yourself.
I own Kimbers. Just basic bottom end models. I can tell you firsthand that they function as well as or superior to the Glocks owned by my shooting compadres. I can assure you that each of them cannot help but have a grudging respect for these 1911's that have been in service, fired more - problem free, longer than many of them have possessed their current carry choices.
Have to call B.S. on this one as I have tread the path you say does not exist.
Never said I don't own sports cars. My last car was a 1998 Dinan S2.
I also never said that a 1911 COULDN'T last 10K rounds, all original, with zero malfunctions. I just think Glocks are better at it.
Read that very carefully. Not 10K rounds period, 10K with ZERO mods and ZERO problems.
Again, I have to ask. Who uses a Glock as a race gun, but carries a 1911? Anyone?
Some of you guys are entirely too quick to pick a fight. All I said was that it's disappointing that a design that has had SO MUCH TIME, on a platform that costs SO MUCH MONEY, can still have the problems that this thread mentions. Freak occurences happen and machines fail, but when you can take five 1911's that cost over 1,000 and list some problems that are commonplace - across the board, regular problems...that disappoints me. I didn't say "1911's SUCK", or "1911's are not reliable". I like the platform very much.
I also never said that a 1911 COULDN'T last 10K rounds, all original, with zero malfunctions. I just think Glocks are better at it.
Read that very carefully. Not 10K rounds period, 10K with ZERO mods and ZERO problems.
Again, I have to ask. Who uses a Glock as a race gun, but carries a 1911? Anyone?
Some of you guys are entirely too quick to pick a fight. All I said was that it's disappointing that a design that has had SO MUCH TIME, on a platform that costs SO MUCH MONEY, can still have the problems that this thread mentions. Freak occurences happen and machines fail, but when you can take five 1911's that cost over 1,000 and list some problems that are commonplace - across the board, regular problems...that disappoints me. I didn't say "1911's SUCK", or "1911's are not reliable". I like the platform very much.
The weak points:
1. 1911s should have an interal extractor to increase reliability. The problem with the extractor is not breakage, but losing tension.
2. the plunger tube should be machined into the frame.
3. the barrel bushing can be eliminated by a bull barrel. Briley makes a linkless barrel which could eliminate another problem--the link.
4. redesign the 1911 with a flat feeding system rather than having the bulet tip up into the chamber.
5. the slide stop--the failure to lock back on the last round or to lock back early. I think this is due more to cheap products than a design flaw.
6. design a reliable feed ramp for JHP.
That said, with good quality factory ammo (bad or out of spec reloads is a major problem), a good 7 round mag, a decent break-in period, and without tinkering (the cause of a lot of problems), the 1911 is a very reliable weapon out of the box. From my experience, I know that most of my 1911 problems were caused by my reloads, by trying to make the gun better, or by lousy mags. A lot of problems people experience with 1911s are based on sloppy assembly or production methods --untuned extractors is the biggest problem.
1. 1911s should have an interal extractor to increase reliability. The problem with the extractor is not breakage, but losing tension.
2. the plunger tube should be machined into the frame.
3. the barrel bushing can be eliminated by a bull barrel. Briley makes a linkless barrel which could eliminate another problem--the link.
4. redesign the 1911 with a flat feeding system rather than having the bulet tip up into the chamber.
5. the slide stop--the failure to lock back on the last round or to lock back early. I think this is due more to cheap products than a design flaw.
6. design a reliable feed ramp for JHP.
That said, with good quality factory ammo (bad or out of spec reloads is a major problem), a good 7 round mag, a decent break-in period, and without tinkering (the cause of a lot of problems), the 1911 is a very reliable weapon out of the box. From my experience, I know that most of my 1911 problems were caused by my reloads, by trying to make the gun better, or by lousy mags. A lot of problems people experience with 1911s are based on sloppy assembly or production methods --untuned extractors is the biggest problem.
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
My Kimber has run over 500 rds of Georgia Arms 230 gr. Gold Dot without cleaning before a failure to feed occurred. My Glock 29 has yet to make it to this point without a failure to feed...also using Georgia Arms Gold Dot JHP's. But as someone pointed out...I doubt seriously that I will be using this much ammo in a fight. Especially not with a pistol. I will trust either pistol when cleaned and lubed. I do. The Kimber is my CCW piece. The Glock 29 resides in my car's console.
But if I see trouble coming...I'll be going to my trunk and the HK91
I've yet to see the problem with concealed carry of a 1911 that some people refer to-it's single action. The pistol was designed for carry cocked and locked and I do so. The SA/DA automatics are pistols I've always described as the perfect solution for a nonexistent problem. Now, that's not to say I won't accept one as a gift...I will. DAO's have a place in my pistol pantheon-pocket pistol backups.
But if I see trouble coming...I'll be going to my trunk and the HK91
I've yet to see the problem with concealed carry of a 1911 that some people refer to-it's single action. The pistol was designed for carry cocked and locked and I do so. The SA/DA automatics are pistols I've always described as the perfect solution for a nonexistent problem. Now, that's not to say I won't accept one as a gift...I will. DAO's have a place in my pistol pantheon-pocket pistol backups.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Hey, ahenry!
I first shot a Government Model Colt back around 1950. My first IPSC pistol was a 1912 manufacture, bought in 1970, and mildly modified in 1981 for competition. It had maybe six or eight thousand rounds through it when I first got into combat handgunning.
Nothing ever broke. No failures to fire. No failures to feed lead SWCs or any other bullet.
Opinion: I won't do a lot of shooting with a carry gun. I'll have a duplicate for extensive range-work. Since any gun of any sort--or a car or a knife--will wear with use, I want the minimum possibility of failure.
I'm totally unconcerned about maintenance on a range gun. Small stuff is easily fixed right then and there. (It's a lot easier than changing a car's spark plugs in today's hidden locations!)
If you regularly check any gun of any make, after shooting and before "packing", I find it difficult to believe there will ever be a reliability problem.
PPPPPP*.
, Art
* For the uninitiated: Prior Planning Prevents P-Poor Performance.
I first shot a Government Model Colt back around 1950. My first IPSC pistol was a 1912 manufacture, bought in 1970, and mildly modified in 1981 for competition. It had maybe six or eight thousand rounds through it when I first got into combat handgunning.
Nothing ever broke. No failures to fire. No failures to feed lead SWCs or any other bullet.
Opinion: I won't do a lot of shooting with a carry gun. I'll have a duplicate for extensive range-work. Since any gun of any sort--or a car or a knife--will wear with use, I want the minimum possibility of failure.
I'm totally unconcerned about maintenance on a range gun. Small stuff is easily fixed right then and there. (It's a lot easier than changing a car's spark plugs in today's hidden locations!)
If you regularly check any gun of any make, after shooting and before "packing", I find it difficult to believe there will ever be a reliability problem.
PPPPPP*.
, Art* For the uninitiated: Prior Planning Prevents P-Poor Performance.
Since I didn’t pay “over 1000 bucks” for mine I thought that it must be inferior or something. Glad to know that it will continue to perform as it has. CastleBravo
New member
Some facts for y'all:
Ramped barrels do NOT, contrary to myth, make a .45 ACP 1911 more reliable than the standard frame ramp setup. If anything, it is MORE difficult to get a .45 ACP 1911 to run reliably with a ramped barrel. Because a ramped barrel works good in a Glock or SigSauer has NO bearing on if it is sutible for a 1911. Ask a gunsmith who actually builds the suckers (e.g. Dane Burns).
Glocks ARE very reliable. However, they do fail. My Glock 20C has become utterly unreliable because ... get this... the spring-loaded slide stop lever has failed, causing premature slide locks out the wazoo with anything but the mildest ammo. Go figure.
Note that this is the first failure of any kind out of a half-dozen Glocks and untold thousands of rounds expended. Meanwhile my Delta Elite is getting a new AFTEC extractor. So I'd echo the comments of those smarter than me that the extracter is a potential weak spot. When in doubt... get a S&W 610 revolver!
Ramped barrels do NOT, contrary to myth, make a .45 ACP 1911 more reliable than the standard frame ramp setup. If anything, it is MORE difficult to get a .45 ACP 1911 to run reliably with a ramped barrel. Because a ramped barrel works good in a Glock or SigSauer has NO bearing on if it is sutible for a 1911. Ask a gunsmith who actually builds the suckers (e.g. Dane Burns).
Glocks ARE very reliable. However, they do fail. My Glock 20C has become utterly unreliable because ... get this... the spring-loaded slide stop lever has failed, causing premature slide locks out the wazoo with anything but the mildest ammo. Go figure.
Note that this is the first failure of any kind out of a half-dozen Glocks and untold thousands of rounds expended. Meanwhile my Delta Elite is getting a new AFTEC extractor. So I'd echo the comments of those smarter than me that the extracter is a potential weak spot. When in doubt... get a S&W 610 revolver!