jetinteriorguy
New member
S&W model 627, 8 rounds of 158 gr hot .357 Mag gets the job done as good as or better than anything. LSWCHP at 1200 FPS will take care of business. My best all around handgun in my experience.
1911: .357 vs .45?
- Thread starter Model12Win
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jetinteriorguy
New member
Oops, my apologies for the previous post. Forgot which forum I was in.
Thank you.
OK.
I am curious what reviews you read that gives you this opinion. In my experience, both the Coonan and the DE are extremely well made and reliable as any semi auto, when fed the correct ammunition. (and held the right way
)Other than both being available in .357 Magnum, the two have little in common.
The Desert Eagle is gas operated, and should never be fired with lead bullet ammunition. The Coonan is recoil operated, so either lead or jacketed is fine.
The DE is significantly larger than the Coonan, and over a pound and a half heavier!!! (Coonan, 42oz, DE, 68oz)
I got my first .357 DE in 1984, and I got a Coonan model A some years ago. I don't have one of the new production Coonans, but I have seen a couple, and if anything they've gotten better!
1911 (45 acp) is in poll.
1911 (10mm) is same size.
Not necessarily small, but easy to carry concealed.
My chrono averages:
Dan Wesson Valor
Federal 230 HST @ 891 fps / 406# KE
Winchester 230 gr. Ranger T @ 915 fps / 428# KE
Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,157 fps / 550# KE
Delta Elite
Handload Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,402 fps / 655# KE
Handload Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,400 fps / 675# KE
Hornady 175 Critical Duty @ 1,158 fps / 521# KE
Handload 180 Gold Dot @ 1,152 fps / 531# KE
That 45 acp +P compares to a moderate 10mm load in both power and recoil, (and that level of recoil from a steel 1911 isn't bad).
Which of those is "better" for SD? IDK
Regardless 10mm offers an extra round of capacity, in 1911 platform.
I've chronographed same ammo out of a Glock 20SF, very little difference in 175 & 180 velocities, however 150 & 155 gained quite a bit in the Delta.
Although 3/4 of 10mm listed are handloads, Hornady 155 is near match for factory Hornady velocity out of Glock 20SF.
Nosler 150 handload was essentially same velocity as Corbon 150 JHP out of Glock 20SF.
How does that compare to 357 Sig? I happen to have chronographed that too.
Glock 31:
Speer Gold Dot 125 @ 1,363 fps / 516# KE
Federal HST 125 @ 1,385 fps / 533# KE
Ranger T 125 @ 1,389 fps / 536# KE
Moderate 10mm loads like Critical Duty 175 and my 180 Gold Dot handload easily match the power (KE) of 357 Sig.
Edit:
checked ballistics by the inch:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
Real world results 4'' barrel 357 Mag doesn't match the power of 5'' 10mm Delta Elite.
(fair comparison since revolver doesn't include chamber in barrel length, but semi does)
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"...the Coonan .357 magnum 1911 style pistol..." Another pistol that requires hands like a monkey to shoot well.
"...10mm out of a CDE..." Is about the same as a factory .45 ACP. If it hurts you, it's likely because it may be too small for your hand.
Anyway, there is no 'vs' or 'more effective.' The best one is the one that fits your hand and you can shoot best.
"...10mm out of a CDE..." Is about the same as a factory .45 ACP. If it hurts you, it's likely because it may be too small for your hand.
Anyway, there is no 'vs' or 'more effective.' The best one is the one that fits your hand and you can shoot best.
That statement is not necessarily true. I'll show you why.
All the research, statistics and opinions on One Shot Stops was done by Edwin Sanow and Evan Marshall. It was summed up in three books, public debates and many articles in guns mags. This going back to the 1990's. I'll leave aside here the validity, or lack of it, of their theories and statistics. The point being that all opinions on what is the best round for OSS goes back to them, originates from them.
What M and S were looking for was the best bullet and load that produced OSS. So in their opinion it wasn't that the 357 Mag was "King of the OSS" it was a particular load and bullet in .357 was.
In their first book from 1992 they say that the Federal 125 gr. JHP produced 96.96% OSS. More than any other load for the .357 Mag. Some of those other loads same weight but different bullet produced only about 80% OSS. So they claimed.
Same book, 1992, they state that the Federal 230 gr. Hydra-Shok produced a 90.56 % OSS. Not that far behind and well ahead of many of the 125 gr. JHP loads for the .357 Mag.
In their 2001 book they claim the same Federal load for the .357 Mag produced 96%. Better than other loads and bullets for the .357 again.
For the 45 acp the same Federal Hydra-Shok had improved to 96%. The same as the .357 Mag.
They also state that a load for the 9mm does 91%, for the 357 Sig 92%, for the 40 S&W 94%, for the 10mm 90%, for the 44 Mag 92%, 41 Mag 91%, 45 Colt 81%, 44 Spl. 76%, etc.
Oh and in case you'r keeping track for the 308 Win from a rifle 98% same for the .223 Rem. Oh and some 12 gauge #4 buck shot only 94%---that's just a bit less than the top .357 or 45acp handgun rounds. So a shot gun blast to the the COM, anywhere from the hips up to the collarbone, was just as effective at OSS as some rounds from the 9mm. So they said.
So by 2001 the title "King of the One Shot Stops" was shared by the 45acp and the 357 mag. This under M and S criteria for a OSS. Oh, and that was just a tad behind one hit from a shot gun of 12 gauge and one round from a 308 Win. So anyone who thinks a shot from your AR10 or AR15 is more effective than a round from your old model 19, well think again fellas!
Of course none of it made much sense, but why and how, is another discussion.
It means that there are a lot of very good handgun rounds out there and that the one you shoot best, with a good bullet and round that you shoot well from it, is the way to go.
tipoc
Thanks.
I'm well aware of that. It is one of the central weaknesses of their statistics. I did not go into that, or other weaknesses, because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making. The OSS figures and conclusions are deeply flawed for a number of reasons.
But, even if we go by their figures and conclusions the OSS percentages, by 2001, showed the 357 magnum with a 125 gr. pill by Federal as the best and that it was in a dead heat with the 230 gr. Hydra-Shok 45acp. So, as far as the "king of the OSS" the .357 Mag in a 125 gr. Federal JHP shares that position with the 45acp. Federal Hydra-Shok. This according to the folks who compiled the OSS statistics and developed the concept.
That's the point I was trying to make. Which led to the main point. It's not the round or the gun, it's how the shooter balances the round, gun and the job you want it for, that matters.
tipoc
I'm well aware of that. It is one of the central weaknesses of their statistics. I did not go into that, or other weaknesses, because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making. The OSS figures and conclusions are deeply flawed for a number of reasons.
But, even if we go by their figures and conclusions the OSS percentages, by 2001, showed the 357 magnum with a 125 gr. pill by Federal as the best and that it was in a dead heat with the 230 gr. Hydra-Shok 45acp. So, as far as the "king of the OSS" the .357 Mag in a 125 gr. Federal JHP shares that position with the 45acp. Federal Hydra-Shok. This according to the folks who compiled the OSS statistics and developed the concept.
That's the point I was trying to make. Which led to the main point. It's not the round or the gun, it's how the shooter balances the round, gun and the job you want it for, that matters.
tipoc
If it matters... this isn't correct information. The full-size Coonan magazines hold 7, so you'd be at 8 if you wanted to run+1.
Also not so sure why everyone thinks the Coonan is "so large"
It's long, from the MSH to the front of the grip, and the length of grip itself certainly isn't small, but the pistol isn't particularly fat, there isn't some ridiculous reach to the trigger or the other controls and the pistol runs very well and quite reliably.
I suppose you can make any handgun a "defensive tool" if having some laundry list of different carry guns is your thing. It isn't my thing. I love to shoot the Coonan because it's a lot of fun. Ugly, predictable tupperware is what I carry.
The classic "stopping power" calculators - Hatcher, Taylor - were based on momentum, favoring big bullets over velocity and energy.
They weren't hypothetical, they reflected observations made in the field.
I want a big hole and lots of penetration, and a big, heavy bullet best ensures that.
They weren't hypothetical, they reflected observations made in the field.
I want a big hole and lots of penetration, and a big, heavy bullet best ensures that.
Onward Allusion
New member
I voted for the 357, but it would have to be an 8 shot revolver.
Either the Taurus 608 or S&W 627. I mean you gotta go +P on the 45 to get close to 357.
Either the Taurus 608 or S&W 627. I mean you gotta go +P on the 45 to get close to 357.
Why? Because you mix two questions into a single pole. The Coonan is a dismal last place to a 1911. The 357 is massively effective round. The question is all screwed up.
Remember you asked for "opinions". If you solicit opinions and leave it open to everyone. You get what you get and take those views for what they are worth. Maybe my comments on the poll are out of line. I believe you would see a different result if you just put it as 357 vs 45. Some responses maybe confusing the question as a ballistic comparison and miss the pistol part. Or others focus on the guns. Its a mess.
The coonan vs 1911. The 1911 includes 9&10mm&45, single and double stack. Votes 100 to 1, all day long. My guess. The coonan is a monstrosity, my opinion and vote.
A big plus for the 45 was in the military the restriction against expanding ammo. The 45 makes a big hole and effective stopper. Civilian ammo is not limited and can take advantage of the 357 energy levels. I still kinda like the 45, but, now we can have debate and if someone likes the 357 ballistics he can go 10mm.
If I had to do a 357 or anything else from a coonan, I will take a pass.
Remember you asked for "opinions". If you solicit opinions and leave it open to everyone. You get what you get and take those views for what they are worth. Maybe my comments on the poll are out of line. I believe you would see a different result if you just put it as 357 vs 45. Some responses maybe confusing the question as a ballistic comparison and miss the pistol part. Or others focus on the guns. Its a mess.
The coonan vs 1911. The 1911 includes 9&10mm&45, single and double stack. Votes 100 to 1, all day long. My guess. The coonan is a monstrosity, my opinion and vote.
A big plus for the 45 was in the military the restriction against expanding ammo. The 45 makes a big hole and effective stopper. Civilian ammo is not limited and can take advantage of the 357 energy levels. I still kinda like the 45, but, now we can have debate and if someone likes the 357 ballistics he can go 10mm.
If I had to do a 357 or anything else from a coonan, I will take a pass.
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