1903 Springfield history
- Thread starter SHE3PDOG
- Start date
Rainbow Demon
New member
Of the standard non sniper bolts some handles are swept back with an angle similar to a Model 70 bolt handle, others come straight down. Not sure but I think the swept bolt was an early feature.
The Marine Corp used 03A1 rifles (possibly some 03 as well) fitted with an Unertal target scope (8X?), a very long scope with shock absorbing mountings. Some of these were still around during the Vietnam war.
The Marine Corp sniper rifles were far more accurate, perhaps the most accurate rifle of the war, but the shock/recoil absorbing spring loaded mounts were prone to damage and becoming fouled by sand or other debris and not returning to the set position. They had to be kept scrupulously clean. Later they locked out the movement entirely making it a solid mount.
The Marine Corp used 03A1 rifles (possibly some 03 as well) fitted with an Unertal target scope (8X?), a very long scope with shock absorbing mountings. Some of these were still around during the Vietnam war.
The Marine Corp sniper rifles were far more accurate, perhaps the most accurate rifle of the war, but the shock/recoil absorbing spring loaded mounts were prone to damage and becoming fouled by sand or other debris and not returning to the set position. They had to be kept scrupulously clean. Later they locked out the movement entirely making it a solid mount.
Well a couple of points. There was NO, repeat, NO confiscation of any rifles of any type in WWII. The government did transfer its rifles from one unit to another as needed, and that included from NG units under state control to regular army units. But they did NOT take any privately owned rifles of any kind from anyone. (Individuals could, and sometimes did, donate rifles to the government; AFAIK, you can donate stuff to the government today if you want.)
Now, a problem with that rifle. I would like to see a better picture of the serial number and receiver ring. In another post, I mentioned that some sellers of "low number" M1903 rifles would add a "1" to the front of low numbers so they would appear to be later rifles and not in the potentially dangerous range (below 800000 for SA, below 285507 for RIA).
I stated that the way to detect such shenanigans is to make sure the serial number is centered with the other markings. If, for example, the serial number has seven digits, like 1234567, the middle number (the "4") would be almost directly under the gap between the U and the S of the U.S. marking above it. If the number is NOT centered, and if it begins with 1, it is highly suspect.
So that is why I want a better look at that number and the other markings.
Jim
Now, a problem with that rifle. I would like to see a better picture of the serial number and receiver ring. In another post, I mentioned that some sellers of "low number" M1903 rifles would add a "1" to the front of low numbers so they would appear to be later rifles and not in the potentially dangerous range (below 800000 for SA, below 285507 for RIA).
I stated that the way to detect such shenanigans is to make sure the serial number is centered with the other markings. If, for example, the serial number has seven digits, like 1234567, the middle number (the "4") would be almost directly under the gap between the U and the S of the U.S. marking above it. If the number is NOT centered, and if it begins with 1, it is highly suspect.
So that is why I want a better look at that number and the other markings.
Jim
Rainbow Demon
New member
Never said they confiscated civilian owned rifles in the U S.
The Government called in 1918 BARs from both federal and state police agencies, refurbed these with some converted to the WW1 standard 1918A2 or issued as is to Special Forces.
The Australians did call in many privately owned Enfield rifles.
And NG troops ariving at Fort Dix had to turn in their 1903 rifles and received M1917 rifles in return. If the word confiscated doesn't fit I can't think of a better term, they were not given a choice in the matter.
AS near as I can tell the US government was not allowing any sales of surplus rifles other than to allied governments or government agencies in the U S at the time Bannermans advertised the Mod 37. The DCM may have continued to obtain rifles but that would not do the local gun shop or mail order houses much good.
The only civilian owned companies building the Springfield during wartime years were not selling them to civilian dealers.
The M1917 rifles were being refurbed and either issued to US troops or sent to allies , not sold in gunshops.
Not every gunowner in the U S belonged to the NRA or even knew the DCM existed.
Last edited:
Gaucho Gringo
New member
I have done some reading and Bannerman,s was quite an interesting company. Not only dealt in surplus firearms, but anything a military force could need. I read they outfitted whole armies in South America at one time. Cannons, rifles, artillery shells, machine guns, canteens, ammo, rope or nuts & bolts come on down to Bannerman's. If you don't find what want we will tray and make it out of out vast inventory. And their mail order catalog had stuff we could only dream about today. It was quite an operation. I think at one time they were a larger arsenal than most of the countries of the world had.
No, U.S. Government property transferred from one U.S. Army unit to another U.S. Army unit would not be "confiscated". That term means government seizure of private property for one reason or another.
The DCM did continue to sell rifles to NRA members right up to Pearl Harbor, but the numbers were small. The NRA only had some 25,000 members in those days, and not all wanted rifles. In addition, there were still some Krag rifles in storage, and those were also being sold (at $2.50 each) through DCM.
The U.S. did ship approximately 1,100,000 Model 1917 rifles to Britain in July-October of 1940; they were "purchased" by granting U.S. use of British bases in Bermuda, Jamaica, etc. They were not shipped as "Lend-Lease" since the Lend-Lease Act was not passed until March of 1941. More thousands of M1917 rifles went to Canada; the 80,000 figure sounds about right. Since those rifles were all in .30-'06, and ammunition was scarce, they were rarely fired and the British issued them to the Home Guard where they were used for drill purposes. Many of those M1917s that returned are marked "DP" not because there is anything wrong with them but because of the caliber.
Those shipments so depleted the U.S. war reserves that Army Ordnance went into panic mode and hastened to contract with Remington to use the old Rock Island Arsenal machinery and tooling (which had been given to Remington to produce rifles for the British) to make M1903 rifles for the U.S. Army. That led to production of M1903 and M1903A3 and A4 rifles by Remington and M1903A3 rifles by Smith-Corona, a typewriter company. There was a lot of concern about having S-C build rifles because the need for typewriters was actually more critical than the need for rifles. Fortunately, S-C was able to make both.
By mid-1941, the bugs had been worked out of M1 (Garand) rifle production and the new rifles were coming off the line in ever increasing numbers, so M1903 and M1903A3 rifles were relegated to use by support troops (transportation, engineer, etc.), with front line infantry getting the semi-automatic rifle. By late 1943, there were enough M1's to fill the need, and late production M1903A3's went from factory to depot storage; they were never issued and later given to allies or sold through DCM. When those rifles turn up today, some collectors don't believe they are really brand new and are sure they are rebuilt. But in fact they really are new, unissued and sometimes unfired outside the factory.
Jim
The DCM did continue to sell rifles to NRA members right up to Pearl Harbor, but the numbers were small. The NRA only had some 25,000 members in those days, and not all wanted rifles. In addition, there were still some Krag rifles in storage, and those were also being sold (at $2.50 each) through DCM.
The U.S. did ship approximately 1,100,000 Model 1917 rifles to Britain in July-October of 1940; they were "purchased" by granting U.S. use of British bases in Bermuda, Jamaica, etc. They were not shipped as "Lend-Lease" since the Lend-Lease Act was not passed until March of 1941. More thousands of M1917 rifles went to Canada; the 80,000 figure sounds about right. Since those rifles were all in .30-'06, and ammunition was scarce, they were rarely fired and the British issued them to the Home Guard where they were used for drill purposes. Many of those M1917s that returned are marked "DP" not because there is anything wrong with them but because of the caliber.
Those shipments so depleted the U.S. war reserves that Army Ordnance went into panic mode and hastened to contract with Remington to use the old Rock Island Arsenal machinery and tooling (which had been given to Remington to produce rifles for the British) to make M1903 rifles for the U.S. Army. That led to production of M1903 and M1903A3 and A4 rifles by Remington and M1903A3 rifles by Smith-Corona, a typewriter company. There was a lot of concern about having S-C build rifles because the need for typewriters was actually more critical than the need for rifles. Fortunately, S-C was able to make both.
By mid-1941, the bugs had been worked out of M1 (Garand) rifle production and the new rifles were coming off the line in ever increasing numbers, so M1903 and M1903A3 rifles were relegated to use by support troops (transportation, engineer, etc.), with front line infantry getting the semi-automatic rifle. By late 1943, there were enough M1's to fill the need, and late production M1903A3's went from factory to depot storage; they were never issued and later given to allies or sold through DCM. When those rifles turn up today, some collectors don't believe they are really brand new and are sure they are rebuilt. But in fact they really are new, unissued and sometimes unfired outside the factory.
Jim
This is the Bannerman Frankenfield rifle. It was listed in Bannerman catalog 24:
http://www.sarcoinc.com/images/showroomguns09/t26660.jpg
That is a real "Frankenfield" all right. The rear sight is a Model 1903 for the rod-bayonet rifle, probably sold as scrap by Springfield.
Getting the 1917 Enfield bolt to work would be fairly easy as the 1917 bolt is larger and longer, so it could be turned down a bit and a section cut out. Fitting a Spiringfield bolt sleeve would not be too difficult.
The work was probably done by Sedgley as indicated by the circled S on the sight base.
Jim
Getting the 1917 Enfield bolt to work would be fairly easy as the 1917 bolt is larger and longer, so it could be turned down a bit and a section cut out. Fitting a Spiringfield bolt sleeve would not be too difficult.
The work was probably done by Sedgley as indicated by the circled S on the sight base.
Jim
1903A3 blow up
I was just on another web site reading about a 1903A3 sounded like a Bolt ruptured. The shooter was going on about the rifle and what it did, must have cut him in the forehead. but no exact location, of the injury. nothing about if the 03, was it cleaned, how many rounds were fired, and then he goes on about they were Reloads, bought at a gun show. and he shows a photo of the round, dated 54 30 cal, rear of the casing was blown out,!!!! and a piece was still on the shell, primer had a nice clean hit, the blow out was at 6 to 9 o'clock. on the shell, I think a hot load, and not the Guns fault. I still shoot 150 grain, military ball, and Garand 150 grain, my 1903 is mid serial number, under 800.000. I have some Old Greek Garand ammo. I have a friend reload, my used rounds, again 150 grain. Just thought you shooters of the 1903 would be interested
I was just on another web site reading about a 1903A3 sounded like a Bolt ruptured. The shooter was going on about the rifle and what it did, must have cut him in the forehead. but no exact location, of the injury. nothing about if the 03, was it cleaned, how many rounds were fired, and then he goes on about they were Reloads, bought at a gun show. and he shows a photo of the round, dated 54 30 cal, rear of the casing was blown out,!!!! and a piece was still on the shell, primer had a nice clean hit, the blow out was at 6 to 9 o'clock. on the shell, I think a hot load, and not the Guns fault. I still shoot 150 grain, military ball, and Garand 150 grain, my 1903 is mid serial number, under 800.000. I have some Old Greek Garand ammo. I have a friend reload, my used rounds, again 150 grain. Just thought you shooters of the 1903 would be interested
Jim Watson
New member
"Mid serial number under 800000" is still low number single heat treatment.
Y'all be careful, now, you hear? You and your reloading friend both.
Y'all be careful, now, you hear? You and your reloading friend both.
Fishing trip & Bannerman's Island
Sometime about 1977 I lived back east, and my Brother was in north New Jersey. We took four of the kids to Newberg NY to fish the Hudson south of the bridge. It became rainy and blustery so we motored to an island with the remanants of an old stone castle.
Went ashore and found the ground littered with small metal parts. Many were sights and trigger parts. It was the Bannerman Arsenal. He shipped in and out by boat. Two of the kids got poison ivy which was all over.
http://ronrothman.com/gallery/cold-spring-ny-2006/IMG_7565_bannermans_castle_water_approach
Sometime about 1977 I lived back east, and my Brother was in north New Jersey. We took four of the kids to Newberg NY to fish the Hudson south of the bridge. It became rainy and blustery so we motored to an island with the remanants of an old stone castle.
Went ashore and found the ground littered with small metal parts. Many were sights and trigger parts. It was the Bannerman Arsenal. He shipped in and out by boat. Two of the kids got poison ivy which was all over.
http://ronrothman.com/gallery/cold-spring-ny-2006/IMG_7565_bannermans_castle_water_approach
Banner man
More about Bannerman's Island (Pollopel Island)
http://www.artificialowl.net/2008/07/bannermans-castle-abandoned-military.html
Lotsa Springfields went through that pile of bricks.
Pete
More about Bannerman's Island (Pollopel Island)
http://www.artificialowl.net/2008/07/bannermans-castle-abandoned-military.html
Lotsa Springfields went through that pile of bricks.
Pete