1898? S&W Russian new #3 .44 cal. revolver

Interesting information from both of you and others as well. It does have an 1 7/16" cylinder with one shoulder about 2/3 into the cyl. Another thing I found was the serial # of the pistol is 23568 and the serial # of the cylinder is 26568, the last 3 digits being the same. Does this mean the cylinder has been changed and the numbers being a coincidence or would this pistol have had two cylinders for it? Am I correct in saying this revolver is a new model 3 double action .44 Russian or am I still confused?
Click to expand...

Regarding the different SNs on frame and cylinder. That sounds like too much of a coincidence that they only vary by one character. I suggest you check again under some magnification and see if the second character in each is actually the same. Sometimes it is easy to mistake a 3 for a 6.

OK, let's back up for a minute. It looked like the third photo I posted, correct? If so it is a 44 Double Action. Period. Sometimes also called the New Model Navy No. 3 Revolver. That may be part of the source of the confusion. It sounds like the caliber is 44 Russian, but that is not part of the name of the gun.

There were some specific model names given to some variations of the 44 Double Action, but they were very specific. There was the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite, which was relatively rare. These had cuts in the frame to lessen the overall weight of the gun. The easiest way to identify a 44DA Wesson Favorite is the horizontal groove cut into the frame between the trigger guard and the cylinder, and the groove running down the top of the barrel rib. Because there was no space for markings on the top of the barrel rib, the patent dates are on the cylinder. There was the 44 Double Action Frontier, which was only chambered in 44-40 with the 1 9/16" cylinder. And there was the very rare 38 Winchester Double Action, chambered for 38-40. Most are marked 38 Winchester Ctg on the barrel. These are very rare, only 276 were made.

Getting back to the standard 44 Double Action, the one in the photo is a target model with target sights. The standard sight models looked like this. That is not the original front sight, but the standard models had a front sight that looked pretty much like that, just not quite as tall.

44DA02.jpg


New Model #3 or New Model Number Three was a specific model (with several variations according to caliber). The New Model #3 looked just like the second photo; a single action revolver with a small hump on the back of the grip. This one is nickel plated but they came blued too. It was called the New Model #3 because it was the last and most sophisticated of the #3 frame Top Break revolvers that S&W made.

Remember: #3 only denotes frame size. There were five separate models using the large #3 frame size; the American, Russian, DA 44, Schofield, and New Model #3. A lot of folks get confused about this, thinking that #3 was a specific model. Only New Model #3 was a specific model.

Here is a photo of the American Model, the very first of the Top Break Smith and Wessons. This is the one that fired the 44 S&W American cartridge with the heeled bullet. Without looking it up, I am pretty sure some of these were made chambered for the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge too. This is also what the 1st Model Russian (Old, Old Model Russian) looked like. Indistinguishable at a glance from the American Model except for chambering and markings. No big hump on the grip and no extra hook at the bottom of the trigger guard.

11025208_5_zps4f771678.jpg


Now, just to confuse you further, I have some reprints of old S&W catalogs, and they do refer to what is obviously the New Model Number Three as the 'Russian' model. But those catalogs are over 100 years old, and the currently accepted model names of the five different guns made on the #3 sized frame, at least according to the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, by Supica and Nahas, were American, Russian, Schofield, 44 Double Action, and New Model Number Three.

Hope I haven't confused you more.

P.S. Since the front sight on my blued 44 DA was not original anyway, I had a smith replace it with an antique dime a few years ago. Same height as the sight that was on it, but more fun.

NewFrontSight02.jpg
 
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Driftwood Johnson

I think I am finally getting it sorted out. It is like the top picture of your last reply, no doubt about that. The serial # on the cylinder is definitely 26568 and the frame is definitely 23568. What would possibly explain exactly 3000 difference between them? Mine has the smaller front sight and was originally nickel plated but has since worn away. It needs restored but I'm not sure it would be worth it.
 
021retired:

If the SN on the frame and the cylinder differ, it means the cylinder was replaced at some point. The SN was generally stamped in four different locations on S&W Top Breaks. You have already discovered the SN on the butt of the frame and the rear of the cylinder. The two other places the SN appeared on these guns was between the ears where the latch sits on the barrel extension:

serialnumberbarrel_zpscf92432f.jpg



And the underside of the barrel latch:

serialnumberbarrellatch_zps7cb03665.jpg


When the gun left the factory, the SNs in all four locations matched. If the SN in any of the three other locations does not match the SN on the butt of the gun, it means the gun did not leave the factory with that part, it has been replaced at some point. These guns are over 100 years old and it is not unusual for parts to have been replaced at some point.

Look for the two extra SN locations on your gun and see if they match the SN on the butt. The SN on the butt is the one that 'defines' the gun, since it is on the main frame.

You may have to remove the cylinder to see the SN in those two locations. To remove the cylinder, lift the latch, and rotate the cylinder, I think its counter clockwise when viewed from the rear, I don't have the gun in my hand right now, while applying slight pressure away from the barrel. There is an interrupted thread and rotating the cylinder the opposite direction from that which the hand pushes it, while applying light pressure will engage the thread and allow you to spin the cylinder off past the raised latch. Reverse the process to put it back on.

I still think it is quite a coincidence that a replacement cylinder SN would only be off by one digit from the SN on the butt. It can be really easy sometimes to misinterpret the stamped SNs on some of these old guns, particularly if there is some wear. But if the SN in any of the other three locations does not match the SN on the butt, the gun did not leave the factory with that part. No, unlike Cap & Ball revolvers there would be no reason to supply an extra cylinder, unless it was chambered for another caliber. Your 1 7/16" cylinder pretty well rules that out.

Bob Wright:

No, I just really like old Smiths and have a bunch of them.
 
Driftwood Johnson

This just keeps getting stranger. The serial numbers on those other two locations match the cylinder, 26568, leaving the frame number by itself. Wouldn't it be unusual for someone to replace all those components on another frame or vice versa? This thing is a real odd ball.
 
Howdy Again

It's over 100 years old. It is entirely possible that somebody at some point had two revolvers, neither of which was shootable, but by combining parts they came up with one good gun.

But I am still suspicious of that SN on the butt. One digit off is a big coincidence. They did not comb through the parts bins looking for specific SNs to put on the gun, frames were marked at one point, the other parts were marked as they were being assembled. Is it possible for you to post a clear, well focused photo of the Serial Numbers, just to be sure?

It is also remotely possible you could have a mismarked gun. You can never tell with S&W, there is always an exception somewhere to every rule.

You could always have the gun lettered. Here is a link to the form to send to Roy Jinks, the official S&W historian. For $50 he will look up the gun's history. When it shipped, barrel length, finish, and where it was shipped. But you really need to be sure of the SN on the butt so Roy does not look up the wrong gun.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757825_-1_757814_757812_image
 
It didn't happen often, but I would not be too surprised to find that the numbers guy made a mistake. Those numbers were put on with individual stamps, not by a numbering machine, so it isn't impossible that the guy picked up the wrong number. I, too, often caution against those "they made a mistake" stories, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, at least with numbers. (No, "they" didn't make a mistake in the middle of a roll stamp!)

Jim
 
Howdy Again

Yes, absolutely possible.

The numbers were put on by hand, often with separate number stamps held in line in a tool. That's why they line up nicely. With some companies the numbers do not line up so well, but with Smiths they usually do. The assembler would hold the tool in place and strike it with a hammer to serialize the parts.

Now here is the important part:

The SN on the frame is the SN of record. I am not sure but I believe that sometimes frames were serialized, then put in storage until needed. For instance, all frames for all the LARGE #3 Top Breaks were made before 1899, so they are all classified as antiques, but they remained in the catalog well into the 20th Century. When S&W decided to make up a run of a particular gun, the frames were pulled out of inventory, and assembled with all the other parts. That is the time that the other parts, cylinder, latch, and barrel would be serialized. I ain't 100% sure of this, but it makes the most sense to me. Other times frames may have actually been serialized as the guns were assembled.

The bottom line is, if any research is to be done on the gun, the SN on the butt of the frame is the SN of record. That's why I would still like to see a clear photo. I have sometimes been fooled about what a number is myself, sometimes it takes real close examination. I have also caught mistakes in paperwork when buying guns when the dealer occasionally makes a mistake on the SN. I always double check SNs real carefully.
 
Boy I love threads like this one! "Gun **** With An Education"! :)

Great photos and great information fellas - a very interesting read! Thanks! :)
 
At that time, S&W used the serial numbers as assembly numbers. The frame was numbered early in the process, the other parts fitted and numbered, then the gun torn down for parts hardening and final finishing (bluing or plating), and re-assembled with the same numbered parts. In some cases, it might be that in the process, parts from two different guns could be mixed, but no batch process would ever handle 3000 guns at a time (100 was usually tops), so I think it likely there was a numbering mistake.

Jim
 
Driftwood Johnson

My camera doesn't take very good close up photos but I will try to get one of the butt and at least one of the other numbered areas. Do I use "insert image" on the message screen to post the pictures? I am as computer challenged as I am on guns.

021retired
 
Driftwood Johnson

These are not very good but I think the numbers are legible. Your photos are excellent, what camera do you use? Apparently, my pictures are too large, seems I had this problem before. I will try to reduce them and try again.
 
Can you transfer the pictures from your camera to your computer? If so, do you have a photo editor program? Often a basic editor comes loaded on the computer.

Jim
 
021,

Try to figure out if your camera has a macro feature.

This will allow you to get very close to the subject you're photographing and have everything remain nice and clear.
 
Driftwood Johnson

I'm not having any success getting these pictures sent. I will ask my computer tech if she can get them reduced so I can transfer the photos of the serial numbers and you can judge for yourself. I can send them to an email address but not this size restricted attachment.

021retired
 
I always liked the look of the top break S&W's from the turn of the century. Didn't Wild bill hickok carry one or two?

Gary
 
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