1898? S&W Russian new #3 .44 cal. revolver

021retired

Inactive
Back in fall 2012, I was inquiring about an old S&W .44 caliber revolver I have and did remember some of the information I found out about it. Best I can recall, it was a Russian new #3 (serial # 23568) but I would like to get back up to speed on what I have forgotten about it. It has a 6" barrel with an odd trigger guard shape, the back being a reverse curve instead of round consistent with the lower and front. I would appreciate any new or confirming information from the experts out there. Thanks, Mike
 
looks like this?

russ-left.jpg


this ones a repro.
 
Howdy

There were five different models built on the large, #3 frame. The only one missing from this lineup is the American Model.


Russian Model:

Russian02.jpg



New Model Number Three:

myNewModelNumberThree04_zps40e8194f.jpg



Double Action 44:

nickel44DA02_zpsce6eeac6.jpg



Schofield:

schofieldandholster02_zps77dd6ba9.jpg
 
The American Model and First Model Russian had a grip shaped more like the Schofield, also the long extractor housing. Some of the first American Models offered for Army approval were .44 rimfire, apparently .44 Henry.

You probably knew that, though.

And, just for bunkcombe, the Model No. 1 was for a six shot .22 rimfire. The Model No. 2 was for a six shot .32 R.F. the Model No 1 1/2 was for a five shot .32 R.F.

Bob Wright
 
And, just for bunkcombe, the Model No. 1 was for a six shot .22 rimfire. The Model No. 2 was for a six shot .32 R.F. the Model No 1 1/2 was for a five shot .32 R.F.

Not quite. The No. 1 was a seven shot .22 rimfire. You are correct about the No. 1 1/2 and the No. 2.


Top to bottom in this photo is a Number 2 (Old Army), No. 1 1/2, and a No. 1, Third Issue.

ThreeTipUps02_zps974581e9.jpg




In this photo you can see the seven chambers of the No. 1.

No1TipUpopen_zps17926697.jpg
 
Driftwood

Howdy, the third picture down, Russian double action .44 is the one I have with the odd trigger guard. Would this also be a .44-40? Is this a fairly rare pistol? I also have a S&W .32 double action 5 shot revolver with the same frame design, serial # 37062. Both of these belonged to my Grandfather but I am going to sell them as I have no one to pass them on to.
 
They made most in .44 Russian, some as the Double Action Frontier in .44-40.

Measure your cylinder. If it is 1 7/16" long, it is surely .44 Russian. If it is 1 9/16" long, it is likely .44-40 but may be .44 Russian. Look for any marks like Winchester, WCF, or 1873.

The cartridges are NOT interchangeable.
 
021retired: You are using confusing terms.

The Russian model is the first photo. The one with the hook under the trigger guard and the sharp, pointy bit above the grip. That is the only one with the word Russian in the name. The double action revolver in the third photo is simply known as the 44 Double Action model. No 'Russian' in the name. 44 Russian was the most common caliber, but it is not part of the name. Most of these did not have a caliber marking, you had to know what you had.

Cylinder length is not a reliable indicator of caliber. Prior to SN 15340 44 Russian cylinders were 1 7/16" long, 38-40 and 44-40 cylinders were 1 9/16" long. After SN 15430 all cylinders were 1 9/16" long regardless of caliber. The great majority were chambered for 44 Russian. Inspect the chambers to determine what caliber they are chambered for. Of course, dropping a round into the chamber is the best way, a 44 Russian chamber will not accept a 44-40 round. The 44 Russian is a straight case, there will be just one shoulder where the case diameter meets the bullet diameter. 44-40 is longer and has a slightly tapered case. The chamber will have one shoulder at the end, and a tapered section behind that.

This photo will help illustrate the difference between 44-40 and 44 Russian. Left to right the cartridges are 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry Rimfire, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt.

4440_44Sp_44R_44Am_44H_45Sch_45C.jpg
 
Driftwood Johnson

Yes, I was confused on the correct name for my pistol. It is the .44 double action instead of the actual Russian model. Thank you and the other members for the information and help on this old S&W. I know old Fords, not guns as you can tell. Thanks again.
 
Driftwood Johnson:

I beg to differ with you on S&W Russian models. The First Model Russian was identical to the American Model except for being chambered for the .44 russian cartridge. This per Roy Jinks book.


Bob Wright
 
Notes on the early S&W .44s.......

This information is taken from an article "Smith & Wesson, 1852~1896, The Early Years" by Roy Jinks in Smith & Wesson Handguns '96.

There are three S&W Russian Models illustrated in a sidebar, all Model No. 3 and called First Model, Second Model, and Third Model. The First Model is identical to the American Model, the Second Model has the round butt with the hump at the top, and the hooked trigger guard. The Third Model is identical to the Second Model except for the shorter extractor housing.

According to the article, both the First Model and Second Model were produced concurrently for awhile, Smith & Wesson preferring the square butt, and calling the round butt the "saw-handle model." In 1874 the demand was such for the round butt model that Smith dropped the square butt model.

Of further interest, in the same article, is that the first .44 caliber (The American) revolver was in .44 rimfire, likely .44 Henry Flat. This was sent to Springfield Armory (which was close by) for evaluation. Springfield returned the gun, saying they preferred a centerfire revolver.

"...............and that request was accommodated by simply changing the priming system to centerfire without changing the design of the cartridge." Thus the .44 S&W American cartridge is a direct descendent of the .44 Henry Rimfire.

Interesting reading.

Bob Wright
 
Howdy Again

You are absolutely correct.

I did not mean to say that the photo of my 2nd Model Russian is the only way they looked, but it is the most common version. There were approximately 20,000 1st Models made. There were many more 2nd and 3rd Models made.

The First Model Russian (sometimes called the Old, Old Model Russian - yes, seriously), looked identical to the American Model. The only way to distinguish it from the American Model is to peer into the chambers.

The chambers in the American Model, were one diameter their entire length because they were chambered for the 44 S&W American cartridge, which employed a heeled bullet. The bullet was the same diameter as the outside of the case. The problem with heeled bullets was they carried their lubrication on the outside of the bullet, just like modern 22 RF ammo does. But with the old Black Powder ammo the bullet lube was soft and gooey and attracted dirt and pocket lint, not so good for the bore.

The Russians insisted on a bullet that carried its lube in grooves that were sealed inside the case, meaning the bullet diameter was the same as the inside of the case. This round became known as the 44 Russian round, the first of its type with the bullet the same diameter as the inside of the case, just about all centerfire ammo uses this scheme today. If you look carefully at my photo of the different cartridges, you can see that the 44 Russian bullet is smaller in diameter than the case, while the 44 S&W American round is the same diameter. Sorry, the bullet lube disappeared a long time ago. So the first change that the Russians insisted on was the configuration of the cartridge, which resulted in a chamber with a step to it for the smaller throat diameter and the larger case diameter. Which is how you tell a First Model Russian from an American, you look for the step in the chambers. Plus it probably has Cyrillic markings on it.

And all of this business is why '44' caliber cartridges today have .429 diameter rifling grooves.

When S&W entered into further contract talks with the Russians, for the 2nd Model, it is then that the Russians insisted on the characteristic 'knuckle', or hump at the rear of the grip and the unusual hook at the bottom of the trigger guard, both of which gave the 2nd and 3rd models their characteristic appearance. There has been much speculation about these unusual features over the years. One of the myths about the hook under the trigger guard is that it was a convenient place to hook the second finger for accurate shooting. I can tell you that that theory is baloney, it is much simpler to grip the gun like any other gun. There are other theories about the hook could be used to parry a sabre blow, or it made a convenient place to hang the gun from a belt or sash, both of which are also impractical. As far as the hump is concerned, there is speculation that it was to help control recoil. Again, I can tell you from experience that the only thing the hump does is make it more difficult to cock the gun one handed. It is much, much easier to cock the smoother shape of the Schofield or New Model Number Three. To cock the Russian, I have to regrip in order to reach the hammer spur, then regrip again to get my palm below the hump. If I fire without regripping again, the hump hurts like the dickens in recoil.

Personally, I think the Russians insisted on these features simply because they were common European pistol features of the day. The Russians installed an inspector, I can't bring his name to mind right now, at the S&W plant to inspect everything and make sure the guns were being made to their specifications.

The way to tell the latter two models apart is the longer ejector rod housing on the 2nd Model, and the large thumb screw on top of the top strap on the 3rd Model, which is how you remove the cylinder. For what it's worth, all the modern Italian replicas are replicas of the 3rd Model.

S&W identification can sometimes be a bit confusing. I recently handled a New Model Number Three that had the same hook under the trigger guard as the 2nd and 3rd model Russians. It was apparently a custom option.

As far as the S&W factory being close to the Armory, yes, the old Stockbridge Street location was about an 11 minute walk from the Armory. I frequent Springfield a few times a year for the biggest gun show in Mass. S&W built a new factory across town in 1949 and abandoned the old location.
 
Last edited:
For whatever its worth, Russian made ammunition made at the Tula arsenal, was outside lubricated, and was for many years after the adopting the S&W revolver.

I don't believe the generally accepted idea that the Russians developed inside lubrication, but rather seems to me to have been UMC. I do not have any Russian made ammunition, but have seen specimens, and while the rebated heel bullet was eliminated, the bullets were outside lubricated.

Bob Wright
 
He was not the inspector, but the Russian responsible for the contract was one Alexander Gorloff (or Gorlov, it's the same in Russian) who was, I believe, the Russian military attache. Those revolvers, IIRC, were/are known as Gorloffs in Russia.

And just FWIW, it was the .44 Russian, not the .44 American, that was the ancestor of the .44 Special and .44 Magnum, which are simply elongaged versions, the same kind of progression as the .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Special and .357 Magnum.

Filling the large Russian contracts took up so much of the S&W resources of the time that it has been said that Russian production kept S&W out of the U.S. western market and left that area largely to Colt.

Edited to add: I did some checking on the Gorloff story and the only confirmation I found was in reference to Gatling guns made by Colt for Russia and called "Gorloffs" even though he disavowed any attempt to claim the invention of the gun. I can't be sure either way about that name being applied to S&W revolvers, though Gorloff was involved with procurement of the S&W's we call the Russian models. I am not sure if I am wrong or right, but at least I've tried to clarify the situation.

Jim
 
Last edited:
Driftwood Johnson/Jim Watson

Interesting information from both of you and others as well. It does have an 1 7/16" cylinder with one shoulder about 2/3 into the cyl. Another thing I found was the serial # of the pistol is 23568 and the serial # of the cylinder is 26568, the last 3 digits being the same. Does this mean the cylinder has been changed and the numbers being a coincidence or would this pistol have had two cylinders for it? Am I correct in saying this revolver is a new model 3 double action .44 Russian or am I still confused?
 
James K said:
And just FWIW, it was the .44 Russian, not the .44 American, that was the ancestor of the .44 Special and .44 Magnum, which are simply elongaged versions, the same kind of progression as the .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Special and .357 Magnum.

Truly the .44 Russian was the ancestor of the .44 Russian, case dimensions being the same, and the .44 American was truly an outgrowth of the .44 Henry, so the .44 Magnum can, indeed, trace its "family tree" back to the Henry cartridge.



And the .38 Colt Navy was the ancestor of the .38 Colt/.38 Special/.357 Magnum family.



Bob Wright
 
Back
Top