1895 Winchester 30 Gov.

4

44caliberkid

New member
The 1895 Winchester is the last lever action I want to acquire for the collection and I'm just starting my research. I'm favoring one in 405, but would consider a 303 British or 30-03 (30 Government). My question is, some of the people selling 30-03 rifles say they are safe to fire with 30-06 ammunition. I know the case is the same but I am wondering if this is safe.
Also, did the Miroku made 95's come in 30-06? I already have Garand and 03 Springfield, so have plenty of '06 ammo and already reload.
 
Yes, they are safe to fire with .30-06 ammo, as the shoulder for both cartridges in in the same place, meaning no head space issues. But, the cases are NOT the same, as the .30-06 has a shorter neck (and a lighter bullet), which can result in poor accuracy.

I've seen some people say that you can get around that by loading 220 to 230-gr. bullets and loading them long (a problem for crimping, generally).

I THINK Miroku made .30-06 1895s, but I'm not 100% sure about it.

Speaking of the 95, I was watching an episode of Last Man Standing a few days ago. One of the characters was dressed up as Teddy Roosevelt to talk about hunting and conservation, and he was actually carrying an M1895 Winchester.

That was impressive to me because it showed that they were putting some real thought into the show, instead of just slapping a random bolt action rifle into the actor's hands.

I don't think Teddy would have had the rubber recoil pad on his, though. :)
 
Yes, Miroku did make 95's in .30-06. I have one. It's a nice gun, but be forewarned, the felt recoil from this rifle is greater than any other .30-06 I have shot. Makes me understand the afore mentioned recoil pad.
 
"...have plenty of '06 ammo and already reload..." That'd be safe to shoot, but you really need to work up a load specifically for the 1895.
There's a .303 on Guns International with a $1,895.00 asking price. Another in .405 W.C.F of 1915 vintage, on Gunbroker, with a starting bid of 6 grand. Relax there's another with a current bid of $605.00. A Miroku .30-06 on Gunbroker runs about $800.
There's no shortage of 'em. Don't even think about one in .30-40 Krag though. There's no ammo or brass readily available. Only loaded/made "seasonally".
 
Back in the day, one of the most common calibers for the 1895 was the 30-40 Krag. Miroku made some of those (under the Browning name, I think). You might find some on-line.
 
44calibekid said:
Definitely not interested in a 30-40.
Click to expand...

That's a shame, there is hardly any difference between it and the .303 British. The #2 all time typical Rocky mountain bull elk was taken with the .30-40. It is as capable of a round as the 308 Win its more modern counterpart.
 
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"Back in the day, one of the most common calibers for the 1895 was the 30-40 Krag. "

Here in the US, yes, it was by far the most common. The Texas Rangers were famous for using M1895 rifles in .30-40, primarily, apparently, because the rangers didn't care much for the Krag rifle, but they wanted a gun that would use the issue cartridge (the Rangers service would issue ammo only for the standard service rifle, the Krag).

The most produced for the 1895 was, however, 7.62x54R for the Russian military during World War I, accounting for about 300,000 of the 425,000 or so 1895s made.

I've heard, but never been able to confirm, that the second most produced chambering was .303 British, then the .30-40 Krag.

The .38-72 and .40-72 chamberings were never very popular and it's uncommon to find an 1895 chambered for them today.
 
I've long regretted the profitable sale of an 1895 saddle-ring carbine in .30-03; US markings. NRA 85% or thereabouts. It was heavier than I liked, and a buddy kept offering higher bids until I gave in. That was back around 1970, before collectormania had become serious.
 
I have had several original 1895 Wins. I have one I my keeper rack. It is marked
30 GOVT 06. One of my favorite deer rifles. The only reason I still have it is that
it shoots outstandingly well. It likes RN bullets of 165-180gr. I got hold of a ton
of 1905 Frankfort Arsenal 30/40 GI ammo. It was dirt cheap because powder
had broken down and was corroding inside of cases, unusable. I bought it just
to pull bullets. The old 95 bails then copro nickel RN like a match rifle. The 95
loads should be kept down around 45,000 PSI.

Today's 3006 cartridge is actually the 1936 change for the M1. It is shorter not
longer. I think 30-06 went through 7 changes from 1895 version to 1936. Some
we're just bullet style/weight.

Above post was right, Russian WW1 contract made bulk of 1895 production. It
was also a common scam to screw a 30/40 barrel onto a Russian. The Russian
models were fitted with guides for stripper clips, which were screwed on.

I had a 405 remake and it just wasn't same as the originals. I have never had
the chance to buy a nice original in 405.
 
"Today's 3006 cartridge is actually the 1936 change for the M1. It is shorter not longer. I think 30-06 went through 7 changes from 1895 version to 1936. Some we're just bullet style/weight."

Not sure exactly what you mean by that, but it sounds as if you're talking about the case dimensions.

Initial development on what would become the .30-06 cartridge didn't start until after completion of the Spanish-American War in late 1898. The new cartridge was developed concurrently with development of what would become the M1903 Springfield rifle.

The first iteration of the cartridge was designated the .30-01, as it was adopted in 1901. It had the same dimensions as the later .30-03 cartridge, but had a much thicker rim.

The .30-06 case dimensions were set in 1906 with its adoption and did not change after that.

As originally adopted, the .30-06 had a 150-gr. spitzer flat based bullet that took the cartridge through World War I.

Based on WW I experience and the desire to have a longer range capability for machine gun use, in 1926 the Ball M1 cartridge with a 174-gr. spitzer boattail bullet was adopted. The gilding metal bullet jacket was adopted around the same time.

In 1938 the 174-gr. bullet was replaced, not because of the M1 Garand, but because the 174-gr. bullet had increased maximum range so much that it was blowing past the safety zones at military firing ranges. In the Depression it was easier and cheaper to replace the bullet than expand firing ranges.

The new Ball M2 round re-adopted the flat-base 150-gr. bullet and was standard through the remainder of the cartridge's service life.

When the 7.62x51 was being developed in the late 1940s, initial development used the Ball M2 bullet.
 
Hey DRM, it sounds as if you have a pretty good handle on the 1895's production and history.

I just came across an interesting comment on this page (http://www.guns.com/2015/10/26/the-winchester-1895-rifle-winchesters-other-lever/)


"The Colonel [Teddy Roosevelt] had several 1895s in his collection, including a .50 Express that currently relaxes in the Cody Museum..."

I've never heard of the M1895 being chambered for anything larger than .405 Winchester.

Winchester did chamber the 1885 Hi Wall and the 1886 lever in .50-110 Express cartridge, but I've never heard of the 1895 being offered in that chambering.

I'm thinking the article is wrong.
 
Thinking of the Ol' Krag ...

Jeff Cooper once opined that a Scout Rifle built off a 30-40 Krag rifle would be ideal. "That old Krag," he wrote, "really hit hard."

No doubt he was referring to the cartridge in its 220gn loading. One in the chamber, with five more stuffed into that eye-catching sideways loading magazine. That's 'high capacity' Old-School style. ;) It was this country's first military-issued centerfire cartridge, after the era of the black-powder 45-70.

The 30-40 has about the same power as the .303Brit and is very accurate. Been killing big game for over 100 years, to include elk, moose, and the bigger and smaller species of bruins.

No flys on it whatsoever for lesser critters like deer or hogs.
 
"It was this country's first military-issued centerfire cartridge, after the era of the black-powder 45-70."

The Trapdoor was a centerfire rifle, as well.

When I was going to deer camp in the 1980s and early 1990s several of the people had sporterized Krag rifles.
 
"It was this country's first military-issued centerfire cartridge, after the era of the black-powder 45-70."
Click to expand...

The Trapdoor was a centerfire rifle, as well.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my bad. I was referring to the cartridge, not the rifle.

I should've said the 30-40 Krag was our first Mil-issued smokeless (non-BP) cartridge, whereas the 45-70 was a BP cartridge.
 
Today's 3006 cartridge is actually the 1936 change for the M1. It is shorter not
longer.
Click to expand...

To put it short, no it was not. M1 used the same as 1906 ala 1903 Springfield Rifles, Model of 1917s, Rock Island 1903 on through my 2015 Savage Shilen Barreled.

All 30-06 from 1906 on was the same.
 
We've all heard of General MacArthur blocking the .276 on grounds of large inventories of .30 guns and ammo.

Did they eventually use up all that 1906 ammo? There must have been vast quantities made in 1918 to support the Spring Offensive of 1919. Or was it let to age out and be scrapped? I have read that a lot of it made by contracting ammunition companies nobody has ever heard of was of low quality.

Did they shoot up the M1 ammo on hand, at places with deep enough ranges?
 
:cool:
All 30-06 from 1906 on was the same."

Case yes, bullets and propellant, no.
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Really? :rolleyes:

We aren't using black powder any more? :D

Maybe I should invest in one of those new fangled reloading manuals. :eek:
 
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"There must have been vast quantities made in 1918 to support the Spring Offensive of 1919."

Actually, there wasn't that much M1906 ammo left over from WWI. Much of that ammo had been used up and replaced with Ball M1 ammo, which was adopted in 1926 and which featured the heavier 174-gr. boattailed bullet.

In 1937 the military switched BACK to the 150-gr. flatbase bullet, which became known as Ball M2.

Ball M1 ammo was reserved for training and, as war got closer, for use by the Army Air Corps and Navy for those aircraft that still carried .30 cal. machine guns.
 
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