Carriertxv
New member
Not sure if you are aware but original Trapdoors are .461 to .463. I would be getting them to size to .460.
1884 Trapdoor loads
- Thread starter elrotundamundo
- Start date
elrotundamundo
New member
bore slugged .460
I was aware that bore sizes varied, so I slugged the bore. It was harder to measure than some slugs I've done on other guns, because of the odd number of lands and grooves (3 and 3), but by catching the edges I was able to do it. I got .460 with both my micrometer and my caliper, so feel comfortable with the measurement.
I live about 45 minutes from Buffalo Arms in Sandpoint/Ponderay, so I may run up there today and see what bullets they stock with black powder lube, and maybe get a drop tube. I've got quite a few Remington cases I can use for black powder and save my Starline for smokeless.
I was aware that bore sizes varied, so I slugged the bore. It was harder to measure than some slugs I've done on other guns, because of the odd number of lands and grooves (3 and 3), but by catching the edges I was able to do it. I got .460 with both my micrometer and my caliper, so feel comfortable with the measurement.
I live about 45 minutes from Buffalo Arms in Sandpoint/Ponderay, so I may run up there today and see what bullets they stock with black powder lube, and maybe get a drop tube. I've got quite a few Remington cases I can use for black powder and save my Starline for smokeless.
ligonierbill
New member
If you load black powder, remember no airspace, at least slight compression. Otherwise you risk "ringing" your barrel. You might try Alliant Black MZ substitute, a little less messy and smelly than holy black. But I agree with the others that cleaning black powder firearms is not that difficult. Hot water does wonders. Enjoy your time in the 19th century.
elrotundamundo
New member
Thanks to all and a new question
Firstly, thank you all for the good help.
Secondly, I dug out my Depstech endoscope that I got a while back and ran it down the bore of my Trapdoor. The bore looks very good except for the first maybe four inches after the chamber. It is eroded and has sort of an alligator skin look to it. I took a couple of snapshots with the scope. I would imagine that this will affect accuracy, but I am hoping I can get it shooting good enough for a 100 yard deer gun.
1-What might have caused this?
2-I was thinking of casting plain base 405 bullets with the Lee 459-405 HB with either pure lead or a 1/20 lead tin alloy. Would this be the best choice given the bore condition or should I maybe use a gas check bullet.
Firstly, thank you all for the good help.
Secondly, I dug out my Depstech endoscope that I got a while back and ran it down the bore of my Trapdoor. The bore looks very good except for the first maybe four inches after the chamber. It is eroded and has sort of an alligator skin look to it. I took a couple of snapshots with the scope. I would imagine that this will affect accuracy, but I am hoping I can get it shooting good enough for a 100 yard deer gun.
1-What might have caused this?
2-I was thinking of casting plain base 405 bullets with the Lee 459-405 HB with either pure lead or a 1/20 lead tin alloy. Would this be the best choice given the bore condition or should I maybe use a gas check bullet.
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Carriertxv
New member
Looks like lead to me. It took me several weeks, a dozen 50 caliber brushes and I swear a 2000 strokes plus hoppes, Ballistol, carburetor cleaner and choreboy wrapped on a brush to get the lead out of my Trapdoor.
The bore looked worn in mine and as I progressed the crap turned from black to rust coloured back to black and then started coming cleaner. I swear the groves doubled in size after I was done and the barrel looks almost new now. Half way through this cleaning process I got discouraged as I thought the barrel was badly pitted but it was just all the lead and crap that was still in it.
I suggest you get the book by Pat Wolf on the trapdoor. It’s available in digital as well. It goes through so much and helped me tremendously.
The bore looked worn in mine and as I progressed the crap turned from black to rust coloured back to black and then started coming cleaner. I swear the groves doubled in size after I was done and the barrel looks almost new now. Half way through this cleaning process I got discouraged as I thought the barrel was badly pitted but it was just all the lead and crap that was still in it.
I suggest you get the book by Pat Wolf on the trapdoor. It’s available in digital as well. It goes through so much and helped me tremendously.
Looks more like build up than worn steel to me. In "ancient" times we used some nasty chemicals (including mercury) to get the lead out. Frowned upon today due to health/environmental risks when incorrectly handled and disposed, but it did work...
Don't be certain a bad looking bore won't shoot well in a big bore rifle. I mean, sure get it clean get the lead out, but even if it looks bad after that, don't assume it won't shoot, until after you shoot it and see.
The big .45 bullet has a tendency to ignore barrel flaws that screw up smaller calibers. Often (with properly sized bullets) a .45 barrel that "looks like a plowed field" can shoot pretty well. No guarantees, of course, just don't assume its bad, until it actually fails to perform. Worst case, your fears are realized, but its possible you could be pleasantly surprised. Only shooting will tell.
Good Luck!
Don't be certain a bad looking bore won't shoot well in a big bore rifle. I mean, sure get it clean get the lead out, but even if it looks bad after that, don't assume it won't shoot, until after you shoot it and see.
The big .45 bullet has a tendency to ignore barrel flaws that screw up smaller calibers. Often (with properly sized bullets) a .45 barrel that "looks like a plowed field" can shoot pretty well. No guarantees, of course, just don't assume its bad, until it actually fails to perform. Worst case, your fears are realized, but its possible you could be pleasantly surprised. Only shooting will tell.
Good Luck!
Carriertxv
New member
I powder coat the cast bullets for my Trapdoor. After sizing I use them as is for smokeless loads and for blackpowder I pan lube the powder coated ones with beeswax and olive oil. Some say not necessary to powder coat but after what I went through to remove the lead that was in it I don’t ever want to do it again.
The Lee 405 HB bullet has big grease grooves and there is no issue with not having enough lube.
The Lee 405 HB bullet has big grease grooves and there is no issue with not having enough lube.
Carriertxv
New member
Elro did you get things figured out on your Trapdoor?
elrotundamundo
New member
After much thought, and judiciously weighing input from this forum and the information I was able to glean from many reloading manuals, and talking at length with the master gunsmith who inspected my rifle and pronounced it to be in extremely good condition. I have formed the following conclusions.
Knowledgeable sources fall into three camps.
Camp 1- It is unsafe to use anything other than black powder in an original rifle.
Camp 2- Original Rifles in good condition can handle smokeless loads up to 28,000 PSI (SAAMI,Hodgdon, Western Powder (Accurate and Ramshot powders), and the Quickload software. My gunsmith is also in this camp.
Camp 3- Original rifles in good condition can handle smokeless loads up to 18,000 PSI/CUP. Lyman and Lee are in this camp.
I have decided to try some smokeless loads using IMR3031 and Accurate 5744 and keep them below 18,000 PSI. I made this choice for two reasons.
1- I have used Goex for many years in my TC Renegade because it always goes bang with the #11 caps I use. Cleanup used to be a minor chore in the kitchen sink. The last time I did this, my wife and granddaughter walked around holding their noses and staring daggers. I now clean it in the cold garage without the benefit of hot water using October Country's cleaning solution. I am also convinced that black powder lays awake at night trying to devise ways to find nooks and crannies to work it's way into, to rust my gun despite by best efforts to clean. Just my experience, YMMV.
2-The velocities I should be able to get at or below 18,000 PSI with the 32 inch barrel are ideal for me and should be close to the velocities I get in the 18 inch barrel of my Henry lever which I load to 23,000 PSI, thus making trajectories very similar. That makes things easy for hunting.
I bought a pound of Black MZ and plan to call Alliant this week for info they might have on using it in the 45-70. I will try it in the Henry then maybe in the Trapdoor if they have actual pressure data on their loads.
When I get recovered from the cataract surgery, I plan a nice long range session with both loads and a chronograph. I will report back.
Thank you all again for your considered replies.
BTW, the "erosion" I was seeing with my bore scope was lead after all. I've got most of it out with copper wool wrapped around a brush.
Knowledgeable sources fall into three camps.
Camp 1- It is unsafe to use anything other than black powder in an original rifle.
Camp 2- Original Rifles in good condition can handle smokeless loads up to 28,000 PSI (SAAMI,Hodgdon, Western Powder (Accurate and Ramshot powders), and the Quickload software. My gunsmith is also in this camp.
Camp 3- Original rifles in good condition can handle smokeless loads up to 18,000 PSI/CUP. Lyman and Lee are in this camp.
I have decided to try some smokeless loads using IMR3031 and Accurate 5744 and keep them below 18,000 PSI. I made this choice for two reasons.
1- I have used Goex for many years in my TC Renegade because it always goes bang with the #11 caps I use. Cleanup used to be a minor chore in the kitchen sink. The last time I did this, my wife and granddaughter walked around holding their noses and staring daggers. I now clean it in the cold garage without the benefit of hot water using October Country's cleaning solution. I am also convinced that black powder lays awake at night trying to devise ways to find nooks and crannies to work it's way into, to rust my gun despite by best efforts to clean. Just my experience, YMMV.
2-The velocities I should be able to get at or below 18,000 PSI with the 32 inch barrel are ideal for me and should be close to the velocities I get in the 18 inch barrel of my Henry lever which I load to 23,000 PSI, thus making trajectories very similar. That makes things easy for hunting.
I bought a pound of Black MZ and plan to call Alliant this week for info they might have on using it in the 45-70. I will try it in the Henry then maybe in the Trapdoor if they have actual pressure data on their loads.
When I get recovered from the cataract surgery, I plan a nice long range session with both loads and a chronograph. I will report back.
Thank you all again for your considered replies.
BTW, the "erosion" I was seeing with my bore scope was lead after all. I've got most of it out with copper wool wrapped around a brush.
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Jim Watson
New member
Figures. "Hard cast" bullets less than the roomy Springfield barrel and smokeless powder just about guarantee heavy leading.
I have heard it said that black powder will scour out lead left from smokeless. But it is possible to lay down lead with black. I have also heard of a traditional turpentine soak and a patch so tight the rod has to be driven with a mallet.
I have heard it said that black powder will scour out lead left from smokeless. But it is possible to lay down lead with black. I have also heard of a traditional turpentine soak and a patch so tight the rod has to be driven with a mallet.
Carriertxv
New member
Elro cleaning a trapdoor after using blackpowder compared to a front loader is like night to day. Now what you need to do with the cases adds a bit more but the rifle is so much easier.
elrotundamundo
New member
Ended up with three loads
I loaded up three loads to try out as soon as I recover from my second cataract surgery on Monday. All three use Montana Bullet Works 405 grain LFN-GC and two are below 18,000 PSI, and the Black MZ load is below 20,000 CUP per the Alliant tech I talked to on the phone. The first two use IMR 3031 and Accurate 5744 and the last is 49 grains by weight of Black MZ. I will be chronographing these so will report back when I get a chance to go to the range with new lenses in my eyes.
I loaded up three loads to try out as soon as I recover from my second cataract surgery on Monday. All three use Montana Bullet Works 405 grain LFN-GC and two are below 18,000 PSI, and the Black MZ load is below 20,000 CUP per the Alliant tech I talked to on the phone. The first two use IMR 3031 and Accurate 5744 and the last is 49 grains by weight of Black MZ. I will be chronographing these so will report back when I get a chance to go to the range with new lenses in my eyes.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
I run BP and smokeless on my 1884 TD
About 63 gr of Goex 2F BP with the cast 405 RNFP and i'm at about 1220 fps
I run a very accurate and mild load which is about 28 gr of H4198 and the same cast 405 gr RNFP and i'm at about 1230 fps
**The reason I had to add the disclaimer is based upon the fact my Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook's published data for the 1873 Springfield using 4198 and the 405 gr cast bullet is from 31.5gr (1312 fps) to max of 35gr (1463 fps) .
I run BP and smokeless on my 1884 TD
About 63 gr of Goex 2F BP with the cast 405 RNFP and i'm at about 1220 fps
I run a very accurate and mild load which is about 28 gr of H4198 and the same cast 405 gr RNFP and i'm at about 1230 fps
**The reason I had to add the disclaimer is based upon the fact my Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook's published data for the 1873 Springfield using 4198 and the 405 gr cast bullet is from 31.5gr (1312 fps) to max of 35gr (1463 fps) .