Bill Akins
New member
Thanks Enyaw for that end bristle brush info. I need one of those and I'm gonna go look for that at Dixie's like you said. You wouldn't have the specific link to it at Dixie would you? Thanks again.
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1860 Army - tight cylinder
- Thread starter Paool
- Start date
I agree with the previous post about not using any sort of grease over the balls in the chamber. This is usually recommended as a means of preventing chain-fires, with a supposed secondary benefit of keeping the fouling in the barrel soft and easy to clean.
I tried this myself, and the grease was pretty much either blown or melted away after the first shot, and all you ended up with was a messy, greasy revolver.
Regarding keeping the fouling soft, first, my practice has been, when packing up to leave the range after a shooting session, to spray the bore and the cylinders down with "Moose Milk" (a 50/50 mixture of Ballistol mineral oil and water). My pistols always clean up easily at home using plain old hot water.
Regarding the chain-fires, I have become convinced that most if not all chain-fires result from either poorly-fitting caps that either fall off under recoil, or that have to be pinched to stay on (leaving channels up each side of the cap between the cap skirt and the nipple, permitting flash gasses to travel up inside an unfired cap and ignite the priming compound). Properly-fitting caps are critical, and the shooter either has to find caps that fit the nipple cones, or select and stick with one size and brand of cap - they are all different - and modify the nipple cones to fit.
FWIW, I use CCI #10's because they seem to be readily available by the carton lot, and I like the long skirt that they have as they seem to stay on the nipples better. I do sometimes have to - if the nipples have a lot of cone-shaped taper to them - remove the nipples from my revolvers, chuck the base in my drill press, and reduce the taper a little using a file held against the nipple as it is spun in the drill press.
Of course you should also make sure that the balls or bullets that you are loading seal tightly in the chamber, and the best way of doing that is to select balls or bullets that shave off a continuous ring of lead when being pressed in.
When charging the cylinder, you want to make sure that, when the ball or bullet is pressed in over the powder, there is no air gap between the ball or bullet and the powder. If the loading ram is unable to press the ball in sufficiently far, then you should use some sort of filler - like cream-of-wheat - to take up the space. A significant air gap can cause catastrophic pressure spikes on firing, and cause the cylinder to blow apart. But, as stated earlier, the cream-of-wheat or other filler can possibly help to prevent the possibility of chain-fires should hot gasses enter an unfired chamber from the front.
I also avoid any sort of "normal" gun oil. I had cleaned my old 1860 Army after shooting it last several years ago, and lubricated the lock work with whatever oil du jour that I had laying around. Recently, when I got it out again, I disassembled it because the works felt gummy and found the lockwork pieces coated with nasty tar-like deposits. (Perhaps I hadn't cleaned it as thoroughly as I should have, and just dripped the oil in before putting it away.) Now I use Crisco as a "grease" on things like the cylinder arbor and the threads of any screws or the nipples, and Ballistol as a general lube and rust-preventative.
I tried this myself, and the grease was pretty much either blown or melted away after the first shot, and all you ended up with was a messy, greasy revolver.
Regarding keeping the fouling soft, first, my practice has been, when packing up to leave the range after a shooting session, to spray the bore and the cylinders down with "Moose Milk" (a 50/50 mixture of Ballistol mineral oil and water). My pistols always clean up easily at home using plain old hot water.
Regarding the chain-fires, I have become convinced that most if not all chain-fires result from either poorly-fitting caps that either fall off under recoil, or that have to be pinched to stay on (leaving channels up each side of the cap between the cap skirt and the nipple, permitting flash gasses to travel up inside an unfired cap and ignite the priming compound). Properly-fitting caps are critical, and the shooter either has to find caps that fit the nipple cones, or select and stick with one size and brand of cap - they are all different - and modify the nipple cones to fit.
FWIW, I use CCI #10's because they seem to be readily available by the carton lot, and I like the long skirt that they have as they seem to stay on the nipples better. I do sometimes have to - if the nipples have a lot of cone-shaped taper to them - remove the nipples from my revolvers, chuck the base in my drill press, and reduce the taper a little using a file held against the nipple as it is spun in the drill press.
Of course you should also make sure that the balls or bullets that you are loading seal tightly in the chamber, and the best way of doing that is to select balls or bullets that shave off a continuous ring of lead when being pressed in.
When charging the cylinder, you want to make sure that, when the ball or bullet is pressed in over the powder, there is no air gap between the ball or bullet and the powder. If the loading ram is unable to press the ball in sufficiently far, then you should use some sort of filler - like cream-of-wheat - to take up the space. A significant air gap can cause catastrophic pressure spikes on firing, and cause the cylinder to blow apart. But, as stated earlier, the cream-of-wheat or other filler can possibly help to prevent the possibility of chain-fires should hot gasses enter an unfired chamber from the front.
I also avoid any sort of "normal" gun oil. I had cleaned my old 1860 Army after shooting it last several years ago, and lubricated the lock work with whatever oil du jour that I had laying around. Recently, when I got it out again, I disassembled it because the works felt gummy and found the lockwork pieces coated with nasty tar-like deposits. (Perhaps I hadn't cleaned it as thoroughly as I should have, and just dripped the oil in before putting it away.) Now I use Crisco as a "grease" on things like the cylinder arbor and the threads of any screws or the nipples, and Ballistol as a general lube and rust-preventative.
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Fingers McGee
New member
Bore butter on the arbor of a Colt style revolver and a lubed wad between the powder and ball will ensure your revolver wil run trouble free for ten to fifteen cylinders full over three days under normal conditions. If it's extremely hot and dry, you may only get five to ten cylinders full before the pistol gets a little sluggish.
FM
FM
I am hesitant to post this because I agree with Noz in that "these are simple guns with simple problems" and were intended to be fixed with simple solutions. For the most part, I agree with that.
However, the problem becomes, in the modern era anyways, is that these old designs are being copied by a bunch of Italian gunmakers. Sometimes these "old guns" don't get made exactly the same way (and sometimes they do and the "old problems" show up)!
Anyway, I'm going to post some pretty complicated stuff that came out in the SASS Cowboy Chronicle by a fella that I've come to trust regarding gunsmithing issues/problems. I shoot '71/72 Open Tops, so these articles were very informative for me regarding headspace, wedge placement, etc. I learned a lot by reading these articles. I hope, if this subject interest you, that they will teach you a thing or two as well.
That said, my Open Tops suffer from the effects of fouling on the cylinder face. I probably won't go to the problems that Pettifogger suggests and will (after talking with him) take my gunsmith's advice and have him remove some of the forcing cone in order to provide greater cylinder gap.
Here's Pettifogger's articles:
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_1.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_2.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_3.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_4.pdf
However, the problem becomes, in the modern era anyways, is that these old designs are being copied by a bunch of Italian gunmakers. Sometimes these "old guns" don't get made exactly the same way (and sometimes they do and the "old problems" show up)!
Anyway, I'm going to post some pretty complicated stuff that came out in the SASS Cowboy Chronicle by a fella that I've come to trust regarding gunsmithing issues/problems. I shoot '71/72 Open Tops, so these articles were very informative for me regarding headspace, wedge placement, etc. I learned a lot by reading these articles. I hope, if this subject interest you, that they will teach you a thing or two as well.
That said, my Open Tops suffer from the effects of fouling on the cylinder face. I probably won't go to the problems that Pettifogger suggests and will (after talking with him) take my gunsmith's advice and have him remove some of the forcing cone in order to provide greater cylinder gap.
Here's Pettifogger's articles:
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_1.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_2.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_3.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_4.pdf
Simple Guns with Simple Problems intended to be fixed with Simple Solutions?
When a person is in the "dark of the unknown" because of being in the beginning of the "Cap&Baller Learning Curve" the problems don't seem so simple nor do the solutions. "After the fact", understanding is easy. Like the saying about "hindsight" or the one I use often,"easier said than done" comes to mind.
Take for example Pettifoggers fine articles and consider one of his instructions. He says to always take material off that one side of the bolt if it's too big for the cylinders notches. Can everyone say why he's right...or wrong about that?
Try this one....what makes the mark peened into the ramp side of the notches or what makes the peen on the high side notch edge? The bolt too wide as he seems to imply? Is that right and why? Is that wrong and why? In either case whats the simple solution? How easy would it be to execute one of the simple solutions?
I guess I'm implying the guns are simple machines but.....the solutions aren't always simple to the uninitiated
When a person is in the "dark of the unknown" because of being in the beginning of the "Cap&Baller Learning Curve" the problems don't seem so simple nor do the solutions. "After the fact", understanding is easy. Like the saying about "hindsight" or the one I use often,"easier said than done" comes to mind.
Take for example Pettifoggers fine articles and consider one of his instructions. He says to always take material off that one side of the bolt if it's too big for the cylinders notches. Can everyone say why he's right...or wrong about that?
Try this one....what makes the mark peened into the ramp side of the notches or what makes the peen on the high side notch edge? The bolt too wide as he seems to imply? Is that right and why? Is that wrong and why? In either case whats the simple solution? How easy would it be to execute one of the simple solutions?
I guess I'm implying the guns are simple machines but.....the solutions aren't always simple to the uninitiated
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enyaw said:
That would be me.
Perhaps you'd like to go back and re-read (if you read it fully in the first place) my post. "...I'm going to post some pretty complicated stuff that came out in the SASS Cowboy Chronicle..." Gee, that sounds like it might be a tad more than a "simple solution."
Also, while you're at it, try going back and re-reading the entire thread. The original poster stated, "I noticed after the first cylinder, it became fairly difficult to cock the gun, and stayed that way for the remaining 5 cylinders. It seemed that something was impeding the cylinder from freely rotating." The following posts related various reasons why this may be.
One of the reasons addressed was cylinder headspace and fouling buildup on the cylinder face. My post, to include Pettifogger's articles, were intended to shed some light on that guy's fix for the problem. I've read them....several times. I find the solution to be harder than the problem, but it is interesting to review the thoughts of someone who's probably a lot smarter than me on the subject.
Problem: "Fouling builds up on cylinder face. Makes gun hard to cock/cycle."
Simple Solution: "File down forcing cone to allow more headspace."
Pettifogger's Solution: "Problem exists because arbor too short. Lenghten arbor."
If you didn't catch some of the other potential problems and associated solutions, try this.
Problem: "Goop in arbor. Makes gun hard to cock/cycle."
Simple Solution: "Bore butter on the arbor of a Colt style revolver and a lubed wad between the powder and ball will ensure your revolver wil run trouble free for ten to fifteen cylinders full over three days under normal conditions."
Next time, before you hammer someone's else's response, try reading first rather than posting War & Peace.
Fingers McGee
New member
tanker6 said:
They do get a little long winded
Hammer someones reply?War and Peace was never that informative. I gotta thank enyaw for taking the time for that post. Over the years, I've found that enyaw knows more about cap and ball revolvers and rifles than just about any "published" gunsmith out there. He also makes the best lube pills available.
Smokin_Gun
New member
I agree with Pohill on Enyaw's experiance & wisdom when it comes to Gun repair or shootin' these things ...
Although I din't get to read the Deleted posts which I can imagine were long and detailed ... someone screwed up if he deleted them.
Too Bad, or Enyaw was just bein' polite...
Although I din't get to read the Deleted posts which I can imagine were long and detailed ... someone screwed up if he deleted them.
Too Bad, or Enyaw was just bein' polite...
I guess I've gone and "ruined the stew" for everyone else, and for that I apologize to the rest of you. enyaw's post included a portion which I found to be a personal insult to me and another poster here. I guess he got his underwear in a wad over my reply post at #27 above and deleted his posts and went home.
I may disagree with a poster on this or some other board. Disagreement, however, doesn't mean I (or anyone else) should belittle that person's opinion or post. I've been set straight a few times here by someone who has a greater knowledge level than I have. When I post, I try to insure that I don't over reach my knowledge base. I try to post what I know. If I'm not sure, I say so in the post. Providing another poster with new information doesn't have to be an insult.
If you're the smartest guy in the room....great. Educate us, but don't belittle. Now I guess I'll go to my room.
I may disagree with a poster on this or some other board. Disagreement, however, doesn't mean I (or anyone else) should belittle that person's opinion or post. I've been set straight a few times here by someone who has a greater knowledge level than I have. When I post, I try to insure that I don't over reach my knowledge base. I try to post what I know. If I'm not sure, I say so in the post. Providing another poster with new information doesn't have to be an insult.
If you're the smartest guy in the room....great. Educate us, but don't belittle. Now I guess I'll go to my room.
Smokin_Gun
New member
Tanker6 I agree with you on on what you said about disagreeing and belittling someone. And if that's what you read in the forum you have every right to feel what you do...
This is the primary reason I'm not in this forum and a couple others as often or hardly at all anymore. People react to an interpertation of what someone typed ... and it ain't always the same ya know?
I have three of my own forums and Admin some others and don't seem to have this trouble.
To get back to what was deleted and why... I'll tell ya this much when I talked with Enyaw yesturday he said you were the one that had the best Reply and liked what ya said... so Tanker6 it wasn't you.
I don't really care to know what happened I was just commenting on what my friend Pohill typed, and my knowledge of a friend I've known for many years Enyaw.
It's a damn shame to have to read people arguing in these forums ... life is too short and everyone likes what they like. Why can't it be left at that?
Good post there Tanker6 and as far as I'm concered you need not apologize for anything... Come back outta yur room and Play
SG
This is the primary reason I'm not in this forum and a couple others as often or hardly at all anymore. People react to an interpertation of what someone typed ... and it ain't always the same ya know?
I have three of my own forums and Admin some others and don't seem to have this trouble.
To get back to what was deleted and why... I'll tell ya this much when I talked with Enyaw yesturday he said you were the one that had the best Reply and liked what ya said... so Tanker6 it wasn't you.
I don't really care to know what happened I was just commenting on what my friend Pohill typed, and my knowledge of a friend I've known for many years Enyaw.
It's a damn shame to have to read people arguing in these forums ... life is too short and everyone likes what they like. Why can't it be left at that?
Good post there Tanker6 and as far as I'm concered you need not apologize for anything... Come back outta yur room and Play
SG
Things can be easy to misinterprete and I wouldn't intentionally belittle or insult anyone on a forum. It's unfortunate that happened. Sorry Tanker6.
People new to cap&ballers can find the guns more complicated than simple. They may feel slighted if others replies describribe what confused them enough to post a question as "simple". Might make them feel someone thinks they're simple.
I just tried to show "my opinion" about how "the dark of the unknown" inexperienced Hombres may encounter make the guns more complicated and not "simple". That's all. Just my opinion about how inexperienced Hombres may be intimidated by what's all new to them.
I didn't want the person that started the post in the first place to feel belittled by others opinion the guns are "simple". Some see the guns that way and some see them as complicated to some degree.
Tanker,you would have had to misinterprete my reply if you were insulted since that wasn't by any stretch what was intended.
People just have different opinions at times and that's alright. That's good actually. That's how we learn from one another.
I'll try to be more careful in forums and write better. I ain't a writter and haven't written any books as Pohill has. I should have him give me lessons on composition or something.
Sorry you felt insulted Tanker6. That wasn't what I intended. I'll be more careful in these forums.It's easy to misinterprete what's typed.
I just erased my other replies since I figgered people want to read about "guns&stuff" and not about people gettin the hairs on their backs stickin up.
As far as I'm concerned everything is cool. My underwear is straightened out.
I hope the initial poster gets his cylinder turnin freer and enjoys his cap&baller revolver. Better go before I start postin "War and Peace again.
That was funny.
Take care Pards,
Wayne(Enyaw,Rifle,Blue Tick,Waynerinskisteiner,Wayner)
People new to cap&ballers can find the guns more complicated than simple. They may feel slighted if others replies describribe what confused them enough to post a question as "simple". Might make them feel someone thinks they're simple.
I just tried to show "my opinion" about how "the dark of the unknown" inexperienced Hombres may encounter make the guns more complicated and not "simple". That's all. Just my opinion about how inexperienced Hombres may be intimidated by what's all new to them.
I didn't want the person that started the post in the first place to feel belittled by others opinion the guns are "simple". Some see the guns that way and some see them as complicated to some degree.
Tanker,you would have had to misinterprete my reply if you were insulted since that wasn't by any stretch what was intended.
People just have different opinions at times and that's alright. That's good actually. That's how we learn from one another.
I'll try to be more careful in forums and write better. I ain't a writter and haven't written any books as Pohill has. I should have him give me lessons on composition or something.
Sorry you felt insulted Tanker6. That wasn't what I intended. I'll be more careful in these forums.It's easy to misinterprete what's typed.
I just erased my other replies since I figgered people want to read about "guns&stuff" and not about people gettin the hairs on their backs stickin up.
As far as I'm concerned everything is cool. My underwear is straightened out.
I hope the initial poster gets his cylinder turnin freer and enjoys his cap&baller revolver. Better go before I start postin "War and Peace again.
That was funny.Take care Pards,
Wayne(Enyaw,Rifle,Blue Tick,Waynerinskisteiner,Wayner)
Oh heck. Now I feel like the heel.
All apologies, whether necessary or not, are fully accepted. Sorry I got my underwear knotted.
I guess the biggest problem with the written word is that you don't necessarily get to hear the manner in which it is intended to be said. Because of that, a misinterpretation of those written words can happen. I read what I read and took it the way I took it. If that was incorrect, I apologize.
I write a lot for my line of work. I've even hired myself out as a "ghost writer" for ad copy before (it was for a friend, so no, I won't write your ad). I guess my lesson here is that I need to be a bit more tolerant and less judging. I hope others will take this little "frackas" and learn my lesson by observation rather than falling into the same hole I did.
Let's talk about guns and such. This matter, as far as I'm concerned, is done.
All apologies, whether necessary or not, are fully accepted. Sorry I got my underwear knotted.
I guess the biggest problem with the written word is that you don't necessarily get to hear the manner in which it is intended to be said. Because of that, a misinterpretation of those written words can happen. I read what I read and took it the way I took it. If that was incorrect, I apologize.
I write a lot for my line of work. I've even hired myself out as a "ghost writer" for ad copy before (it was for a friend, so no, I won't write your ad
). I guess my lesson here is that I need to be a bit more tolerant and less judging. I hope others will take this little "frackas" and learn my lesson by observation rather than falling into the same hole I did.Let's talk about guns and such. This matter, as far as I'm concerned, is done.