1860 Army - tight cylinder

Paool

New member
Howdy. Just got into BP shooting and took my Pietta 1860 Army to the range today for the first time after giving her a good cleaning. Was shooting with Pyrodex and using lubed wads on top of the powder. Went pretty well. I fired six cylinders full of .454 balls.

I noticed after the first cylinder, it became fairly difficult to cock the gun, and stayed that way for the remaining 5 cylinders. It seemed that something was impeding the cylinder from freely rotating. I checked and it was not broken caps stuck in the action. I could still fire the gun, but at times the resistance to pulling the hammer back was sufficient that I was concerned I might break something in the process and I used my other hand to help rotate the cylinder while pulling back the hammer. After disassembly for cleaning, I noticed a little bit of gummy goop on the cylinder pin. I have read posts mentioning C&B revolvers starting to get a bit clogged after some firing, but at this point I'm not sure if the problem was perhaps:

1. The goop building up on the cylinder pin.
2. Deposits on the face of the cylinder starting to block the barrel-cylinder gap and cause resistance to cylinder rotation.
3. Something else.

After cleaning the gun this evening, the cylinder seems to rotate just fine and no extra effort is needed in cocking the gun. If anyone has some insights from their experience, I'd be obliged if you'd share.

By the way, the gun shoots just fine, but is a good 6-7 inches above POA at 25 yards. Based on what I've read around here, this is not too out of the ordinary.

Cheers!
 
What you describe is all very normal. Sometimes you must clean the gun after a couple of cylinders. Clean the face of the cylinder and put some grease on the arbor, then continue shooting. Welcome to our world of percussion revolvers!
 
It's likely the contamination on the arbor pin was the problem with the action being sluggish (my first thought was cap fragments, but you didn't find any). The 1860 Army, and in fact the majority of Colt designs, are not prone to fouling buildup on the face of the cylinder interfering with cylinder rotation - that's more a Remington issue.

Now the question is how did the contamination get there? That's mostly to do with what you used to clean the gun prior to shooting it, and then what was used to lubricate the arbor pin after cleaning. You may want to take close look at the cleaning solvents for petroleum distillates - black powder combustion temperatures are lower than smokeless powders, so that some petroleum distillates are not completely burned and turn to tar that can foul the action as you described. Use of solvents specifically formulated for black powder is recommended.

Finally, the arbor pin should be lubricated with a non-petroleum based lubricant such as Ballistol or Bore Butter - there are many good products on the market. Many folks will wipe and re-lube the arbor pin a number of times during a shooting session.
 
If you use BP this happens even in cartridge conversions I started using tripple 7 in mine works better and cleaner.
Mace
 
Not so normal. It should have lasted through most of six cylinders before it started binding. The tarry goop sounds like regular gun oil was used. Some guns have the arbor hole drilled too deep and if the wedge is driven in too far it can close the cylinder/barrel gap too much, even to the point of binding when it's clean. On a new gun the wedge should just be flush on the the off side from the screw.
 
that Haggen character said:
Some guns have the arbor hole drilled too deep and if the wedge is driven in too far it can close the cylinder/barrel gap too much, even to the point of binding when it's clean.

Pretty common problem with the open tops. Insert the wedge until you have .006-.008 barrel gap.
 
This is worth reading

The Open Tops can have the arbor hole in the barrel too deep and that can exasberate attempts to hold a proper constant cylinder gap/wedge position. The cylinder gap can be in the range of .006-.010 and even a little more if a person is comfortble with that. I like .006 inch myself.
A Pietta 1860 coming from thr box should have an arbor fit snug enough in the barrels arbor hole and have an arbor that bottoms in the hole as the cylinder gap is set at proper. That seems to be what the Pietta machinists strive for. I've seen it enough to assume that. All the guns aren't that close in machine tolerance though and a check is easy enough to do when the gun is new.
Stick the barrel on the arbor at a 90 degree from where it should be....press the barrel till you feel/hear the arbor hit the bottom of the barrels hole......carefully turn the barrel gently till the barrels bottomlug either slides past the frame and hits a pin or hits the frame edge. Take into account the fact the barrel isn't a perfect fit to the arbor and there's some play involved. Anywhoooooo......doing this a person can "see" if the barrel lug meets the front face of the frame and shows the arbor is bottomed properly(and hits a frame pin),if there's a small space between the frame and barrel lug, or if the barrel lug hits the frame (as if the barrel goes on a little too far and shows the end of the arbor is a little too short).
Naturally if the barrel goes on too far the arbor is short and if there's a space of more than a couple .001's inch between frame and barrel the arbor is too long.
Arbor too long......hone the end of it till the barrels bottom lug is within a couple .001's inch of the frame.
Arbor too short.....build the end of it up to be longer by welding,screwing on a cap or.....the easiest way.....
put a shim the right thickness in the barrels arbor hole and seat it to the bottom of the hole. Make the shim from a small steel fender washer from the hardware store if you like. File it to fit the barrels hole in such a way as it is tamped in and will stay but......if need be a dental pick or shomething akin to that can get to the hole in the shim and get it out of the hole. So you don't always loose a shim you painstakingly stoned to be exactly the right thickness within a .001 or .002 inch.
The arbor bottoming in the barrels hole with the barrel lug within a coupla .001's in. of the frame is optimum I'd say. It's imperative to having a consistant wedge position-cylinder gap.
If you bottom the arbor and the cylinder gap is too wide or too tight then.....adjust something till things are put right. Either take a little off the breech end of the barrel if the gap is too tight or set the barrel back by taking some off the barrels lug and shortening the arbor till the gap is proper. That takes a little doing and taking anything off the barrels bottom lug means leaving the plane you take some off of exactly the same and the plane on the end of the arbor exactly the same in regards to how they were.

The arbors end face needs be a flush flat 360 degree fit to the bottom of the barrels hole and the barrels lug face exactly parallel with the frames front face. Doing a good job on that ensures the gun fires straight if the barrel is a good one. You can slant the barrels lug face a coupla degrees one way or the other and get the gun to shoot straight, usually, if the barrels lug face makes full contact with the frame(the .002 inch space is closed up). That's within the parameters of the "loose" the arbor has in the barrels hole. The barrel can't seat a little different from changing the plane of it's front lug face if the arbor is too tight in the barrels hole.
Rule of thumb.....fit the barrel to the frame of the Colt without the cylinder on the gun.....then once the barrel is fit properly fit the cylinder.

Anywhooooo.....you need a bottomed arbor to set a good consistant cylinder gap/wedge position. The wedge should be inserted and gently tapped into place with a very small ball peen hammer using the flat end to hit with. Hits that are very gentle. Listening to the sound of the little hammer hitting the wedge you can tell by the tone of the hits.....as they get higher pitched as the barrel gets closer and closer to bottoming on the arbor......when the tone is highest pitched and makes that solid sound metal makes when it's immoveable you can hear that the arbor is on the bottom of the hole and the wedge can't go in any further and the cylinder gap is set proper. Just very light taps to the wedge with the tiny hammer ends up making that satisfying sound as the wedge is set,the barrel gap set, the arbor is on the bottom of the hole.
If things are "a-right" then you can't really get the wedge in with just a thumb.You can get it close but not right at that special place. You can get it close enough to fire the gun but the barrel will be seated a little loose. Not much but a little. That would be of little concern(the barrel a bit loose) if an Apache Indian was bearing down on you with a sharp knife as you finish re-loading a spare cylinder. ha ha ha
Having the wedge set right with the arbor bottomed makes it easier to thumb press a wedge in and out I guess but.....I suspect ,as I read somewhere, that the troopers of yesteryear used the spare cylinder to wack the wedge loose enough to pull it with the fingers to change cylinders. Wacked it loose and wacked it a little to seat it with the used empty cylinder. Makes sense to me. Anywhoooooo.....you can't really seat a wedge properly with thumb pressure. You can get it close but not quite tight as it should be to be perfectly seated.
Also.....a wedge can be damaged easily by hitting it too hard at the end of it's "seat-in".
Well the cylinder gap thing is tended to except for one little thing.........
The hands spring has to be adjusted ,at times,so it doesn't push the cylinder forward too hard and make the cylinder rub the barrels breech end too hard. That exasperates the cylinder turning once the guns been fired some.
Keeping the front of the cylinders center hole and the arbors surface free of fouling is a prime importance to having the gun function correctly for many shots.
The Colt can be serviced properly to keep it functioning withougt fouling drag for at least 100 shots if not 200 shots. Maybe on certain days when the air is dry or too humid the fouling needs a coupla drops of a blackpowder solvent dropped on the area where the cylinders front center hole and arbor get fouled. A Visine bottle works great for that. Turn the gun pointing skyward after the chambers are loaded but....not capped......and drop a coupla drops of solvent or water on the front of the cylinders center hole and turn the cylinder till it spins freely. That's the back-up plan.
The MAIN plan to avoid fouling drag of the cylinder starts with good lubrication. In this plan a good grease of any kind liberally spread on the arbor and in the frames hole where the ratchets for indexing are at the backof the cylinder(powder fouling comes out the nipples and fouls the back of the cylinders center hole too). Doesn't havre to be organic type grease either. That scenario with only organics grease is for the chambers and barrel where the heat is very hot. If you liberally grease the innards of the gun and the front and rear of the cylinder and arbor with any type grease the gun functions properly thru-out a long run of shots.That makes things easier since a good grease on the parts is what guns love more than organics that don't lubricate as well as petroleum grease and are stored with a good grease on them. This petroleum grease thing is part of the MAIN plan though. The rest of the plan is........
Make a good lube pill from wax/lube and insert the lube pill(of the correct solidity) right on top the powder and under the ball. That seals the chamber but......puts the lube pill right where it needs to be to work properly. Right on top the powder. Not toosoft or too hard the pillon the powder will keepaColt functioning all day. I regularly fire 200 balls from my cap&ballers without cleaning the cylinder or arbor. Sometimes I drop a drop of water or solvent on the arbor/cylinders front center hole to keep some fouling drag minimized. Not always though. That's it.....MAIN PLAN....put a lube pill on top the powder in the chamber. That's where the wax/lube does the most good and actually keeps the barrel clean enough to retain accuracy.
The lube pills about an eighth inch thick wook well for me.
Made from equal parts bees wax,paraffin wax, and lube(as in mutton tallow,olive oil,canola oil,crisco,lard, Pam, corn oil ect.ect.ect.) the lube pills work great placed on top the powder in the chambers. That is where they do the most good. From the lube pill in the chamber forward the gun stays clean enough to function and be accurate for many shots fired. I've discovered this and purported the use of lube pills/grease cookies placed on the powder in the chambers ofcap&ballers for probably close to ten years here on the internet. I've read about grease cookies in cartridges smokeless and blackpowder., I've read in Elmer Kieths good book Six Guns about him using old CowBoy hats made of wool to punch wads to be saturated with a lube and placed "ON" the powder in the chambers of his "51" Navy Colt that he said would put them in the same hole all day.
Fouling is kept from the front center hole of the cylinder and the arbor at that point by wax/lube splashing down when melted by the heat of combustion and guarding that area from fouling getting there to drag the cylinders turning. Simple. Make lube pills or saturate wool wads with lube/wax and put them on the powder in the chambers. Make sure they aren't too soft. The wax content regulates the hardness of the lube pill. Too soft and accuracy is hampered. Too hard and they don't lubricate well. In warm weather the paraffin content is upped to up the hardness of the lube pills.
If I'm not mistaken the recipie of equal parts bees wax ,paraffin wax ,and lube stuff is an old one. It can be adjusted as you see fit to work for you. Even toilet bowl seals made of synthetics can be added to the recipie. It's just a good lube "suspended in wax" that does the trick.
I guess I stumbled onto a good recipie as I later learned it was used for decades before I thunked it up. ha ha ha ha Good for smokeless powder too.
That is it Hombres.
Regards,
Wayne(aka Rifle,Enyaw,Wayner,Blue Tick,Red Bone,Waynerinskistiener
 
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Thanks for all of the replies. Quite a range of responses, though.

Regarding the nature of the goop on the cylinder pin, I did clean the gun after I bought it with soap and water. Thought I did a pretty good job, but since I'm a noob...what do I know. Lubed everything back up with some Precision Lube 2000 that I got at the LGS. So I thought I had taken care of the issues with petroleum based lubes. Nonetheless, the stuff on the cylinder pin did seem sort of tar-like. :confused:

Regarding the barrel-cylinder gap: maybe the gap is too tight on this gun. One of the impressions I had when I first bought it was that the gap seemed pretty much non-existent. Certainly seems a lot smaller than any of my centerfire revolvers. I got the impression that with these guns one could basically pound the wedge in as hard as one liked and snug the barrel right up to the cylinder face. Not what I've done, mind you. I put the wedge in fairly gently.

Anyhow, thanks for all of the great information. I'll have to check on some of the things that folks have brought up here and give it another whirl.

Cheers.
 
Precision Lube 2000 is a patch lube, and while it really isn't intended for lubricating action parts it shouldn't have caused the problem you saw on your arbor.

Patch lubes are intended for use in single shot muzzleloaders; they don't actually lubricate anything - their purpose is to keep fouling soft and help the patch seal the gap between the ball and the groove depth in the bore, as well as easing the loading of the ball and patch.

I'd switch to Bore Butter or Ballistol.
 
Ah. Thanks for the heads up on lube.

Just checked the gun, by the way. Yeah, there's basically zero daylight between barrel and cylinder. Based on enyaw's post, sounds a bit complicated to rectify this and get a reasonable (~0.006") gap.
 
With C&B revolvers, the hand spring pushes the cylinder up against the forcing cone (no gap). To measure the gap, put the revolver on half cock and hold the cylinder to the rear. This is normal on these type guns.
 
It isn't difficult to set the cylinder gap,which is smaller than need be, when it's too tight in a Colt that is right with the wedge/barrel fit and all. Simply take the right amount off the breech end of the barrel. Best way is to use a piloted chamfering reamer that faces the end of the barrel concentric with the bore.
You can doit with a file and stone too ifin yer good with a file and stone. Being a little off concentric on the breech end ain't gonna ruin the gun though. It's best for the breech end face to be concentric with the bore though.
You do have to pull the cylinder backwards tocheck the gap because of the hand spring pushing the cylinder forward. That's why a stiff hand spring can exassperate the dragging problem.
I apologize if what I typed up above is not easily readable or too much in a short space.
I try though. When it comes to cap&baller Colts I've shot so many and fixed so many for so long.
Last one I did for an old man with a hankering to shoot an old abused Belgian Colt that was even too bad to be a wall hanger all that arbor/barrel/wedge/frame stuff came into play(like so many of the old Centennials that were made in the 60's and fired till they bled tears),
The gun actually had the arbor,which was in a sorry state to begin with, wrenched out of the frame (by a gunsmith that didn't find the arbor lock pin) without the lock pin removed. That gun was a nightmare to fix and end up tight and sound and aligned and tuned and all. I loved fixing it. ha ha ha ha
It ended up with the pieces well fit back and was described by the owner as being better than new.
The old man was a real shooter that fired many many rounds of 45acp a year(in his eighties). He point shot targets with the Colt Army revolver during testing as he would his 45acp. Point shoot as he had done for decades for not being able to see the sights well. He fired 2 inch and less groups at 27 yards with the Belgian Colt after I put it together. That done by point shooting...not looking at the sights. I only dream of being able tomshoot that well.
I'm just relating that to show that if a Colt is right it'll fire right and as good as any Remington there is. You know...all the checking about the arbor bottoming and the wedge fit right and the chambers aligned well and the gap set and all that stuff. It pays off in the end.
Anywhoooo........It's true that a cap&baller likes good ole petro grease on the arbor and innards and all. Liberally. Just not in the chambers and barrel. The barrel and chambers annd cylinder face should be degreased(like with alcohol) when it's ready to shoot the gun. The lube pills will splash wax/lube on the cylinders center hole in front and the arbor pin from the first shot.... it's visible. It keeps fouling out of there. After awhile,many shots, the wax/lube gets in and causes a little drag but not make the gun non-functional.
I know one thing my old mind remembers.....The spirals around the arbor screw towards the front of the cylinder so lube on the arbor gets moved forward. The spirals grooves of most Colts repos today are only a mockery of what they should be.They aren't deep enough to carry any lube forward. Some judicious filing can make the spirals more functionable. Ole Sam put those there for a reason.
 
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+1 on the lube pills. I use STP oil treatment on the innards and cylinder pin. The stuff slippery and it stays put.
51
 
Paool, you've gotten a lot of very good advice already. I'd just like to add a few things for you.

I don't use grease or oil of any kind anymore on my arbor pin nor over the balls in loading my chambers. I use teflon spray lubricant on my arbor these days....(the dupont teflon spray lube in the blue can from home depot).

The dry teflon spray will not collect and hold the black powder tar like fouling like other wet lubricants will. So although your arbor pin will eventually foul and bind up even with using NO lubricant, it doesn't foul anywhere near as quickly when you use a dry lubricant like the teflon spray. Black powder revolver shooters quickly get used to having to take the cylinder out and wipe the arbor pin off with a moist rag and re-lube the arbor when the cylinder starts to be hard to turn. I generally run a moist patch through the cylinder's arbor hole to clean that out too.

I also do not put any kind of greasy lube/ beeswax, nor anything at all, over the balls anymore. Because it blows out and mixes with burnt BP and gets around your arbor pin and binds up the cylinder and makes it hard to turn.
I use 1/4 inch or so of cornmeal over the top of my powder charge (under the ball) and that acts as an effective fire block to prevent chain fires from the front of the cylinder, so I don't need to lube over the ball in the chamber at all. This will help decrease arbor pin to cylinder binding and also keep your revolver and hands from getting all greasy. Trust me...try it that way, you will never lube over the balls again.

On cleaning, here's what I do. At first you may feel strange about completely submerging your revolver's frame and getting its innards all wet. But after doing it a few times your mind will be at rest about that. I take the wedge out and remove the barrel and cylinder. Then I completely submerge EVERYTHING in hot soapy water in my sink. Cold soapy water will work too but the hot water seems to remove fouling faster and better. Just cold water in a bucket if you are in the field with no soap will work too. You can remove the grips if they are wooden or leave them on if they are plastic. I do remove my wooden grips if I want to completely submerge my frame and let it soak, otherwise I will just submerge the frame while carefully keeping the wooden grips from submerging in the water.

Using the right caliber bore brush....brush out all your chambers with the cylinder underwater. Do the same with the barrel. Brush them out multiple times until no black water comes out. Using a toothbrush brush and clean the face of the cylinder and all around your nipple areas as well as brush the outside of the barrel, cylinder and frame. Pull the hammer back and brush the hammer and the frame under the hammer. Look for squashed caps against the frame where the hammer falls. Sometimes they can squash so flush to the frame and stick against the back of the arbor pin (just under the hammer) that you almost don't notice them. This happens on Colt type BP revolvers. It is hard to get every tiny bit of fouling out of your BP revolver's cylinders. Especially inside the cylinder around the machined area where the flash hole is. There are some machined circles way down in there that just love to hold fouling and most bore brushes will not get into the little nooks and crevices to get all the fouling out because if you look at a bore brush, it is a metal wire twisted around to hold copper bristles in it. The tip of the steel wire sticks out of the end of the brush so that there really isn't any brush on the very tip end of the unit....just has brush bristles on the sides. So you can't get the tip of the brush to scrub down into the area inside the cylinder where the flash hole is. For that you'd need a brush that had bristles projecting out the tip end of the brush. So there is usually always some fouling left inside the very bottom of the cylinders.

So every few shooting outings I will actually boil my cylinders and even my barrel in hot soapy water. The boiling makes bubbles that help to lift and remove the fouling from tiny areas in the bottom of the cylinder chambers around the flash holes that a brush just won't reach. And the boiling won't hurt the metal's temper. Sometimes I'll even stick round toothpick pieces or pieces of wooden shrimp skewers into the nipples to plug them so they will not leak degreaser out, and spray a strong degreaser or carburetor cleaner into the chambers and let it sit awhile and work on loosening the fouling in the bottom of the chambers where the flash hole is. I also use the wooden shrimp skewers to dig around with the pointed end of the skewer and clean with it in the very bottom of the chambers around the little circles machined down there that hold fouling. The pointed tip of the wooden shrimp skewer gets a lot of fouling out that a standard bore brush will not. Then I boil the cylinder in soapy water. I've had very good results doing this. I can just about get every speck of fouling out using that technique.

Occasionally I will even boil the frame AFTER first removing the grips and springs. But I usually just boil the cylinder and barrel and even then I only do that after maybe every five or six outings of shooting. The rest of the time I just field strip it and clean it in the sink or a bucket.

One last thing I do after cleaning and putting the revolver back together again, is to put the little red stem nozzle on my WD40 can and generously spray all down inside the openings of my frame til it's literally dripping out. WD40 will displace water. I found that out back in the old days when we used distributor caps on our cars and going through a big water puddle, water would sometimes splash up into the distributor caps and cause the engine to misfire. I'd carry a can of WD40 with me and take the distributor cap off, wipe its inside good with a dry rag, spray the heck out of it with WD40, sling off the excess, put it back on and no more misfires. WD40 DEFINITELY displaces water. So its good to use in the frame internals to displace any water in there from your cleaning. It helps keep your bolt/trigger spring and other internals from rusting.

One day I was wondering why I wasn't getting good ignition. I had already looked under the hammer but didn't notice any cap fragments squashed against the frame holding the hammer back. But it was a bit dirty back there and what I didn't notice was the cap had so completely squashed (by being repeatedly struck by the curve of the hammer), that it blended right in with the area of the frame at the very rear of the arbor pin just under the hammer. It was so flushly squashed and matted against the frame there, that I had to actually pick it off with the sharp point of a pocket knife to get it off. Evidently it had fallen down there and been repeatedly struck by the hammer until it had been beaten like gold leaf against the frame where the rear of the arbor pin is located.

SASS rules won't allow it, but that's why black powder revolver shooters will raise their barrel in the air when they cock their revolvers.....so that spent caps or cap fragments will fall downward OUT of the revolver rather than get caught in the revolver. Alternatively you can keep your barrel downrange and rotate the revolver to the right for almost the same effect and to stay within SASS cowboy action shooting rules. That works too.


.
 
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A Pietta 1860 that has a good organic grease/lube/oil on the arbor should run 10 stages(50 rounds)in a cowboy match. Any departure from that is wedge hammered in or insuficient lube on the arbor.
 
Thanks again for all of the responses. Always grateful for folks on TFL willing to share from their experience. Will have to pay attention to some of this stuff next time at the range and report back.

Cheers.
 
Bill Akins.......there's a brush ,sold by Dixies and others that sell blackpowder stuff , that has the bristles of bronze sticking straight out. Just what you need for getting the crude out of the bottoms of the chambers of a cap&baller.
You have a real process for cleaning your gun. Some don't clean in the frame or take out the nipples hardly ever to clean the areas of the innards parts and threads of screw holes.
"Butches Bore Shine for Blackpowder" lifts black off parts almost like magic. I take out the nips and roll my cylinder in acup with some Butches and let it sit a few minutes and the black just about rinses off. Some areas need more soaking but the stuff is really good. Lifts blackpowder fouling off.
One thing I know is an advantage of using a wax/lube ,lube pill/grease cookie on the powder and under the ball in the chambers is that from the lube pill forward the steel of the chambers and the barrels rifling stays clean enough to have the revolver retain it's accuracy. That's why I like the lube pills. They keep the revolver shooting it's best without the fouling filling in the rifling grooves.
Anywhoooooo.....lookup the "brushes" with the bristles sticking forward for cleaning yer chamber bottoms.
 
These are simple guns with simple problems and simple solutions and are intended to be cleaned with water.

Don't make the problems bigger than they are.
 
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