1858 Remington .45 LC conversion - Load data?

S

scot_th_rock

Inactive
I recently purchased a Kirsk .45 Long Cold cartridge converter for my Pietta 1858 Remington .44 cap and ball. The pistol is new. Purchased this year. Picked up the Kirsk cylinder with loading door and ejection slide. I had read in the past these conversions should stick with BP loads. I'm fine with that. This is just to make noise and plink cans.

Spoke with Walt Kirsk (Yes, he picks up the phone personally) to get an idea of the powder and charge I should load. He indicated I have options because most .45 LC is generally not loaded for hot rounds and anything I put through the bore BP or commercial should work without over stressing the max CUP's on the revolver or cylinder.

All that said, is there a recommended BP or Propellant alternative anyone can suggest? A medium load? I'd be firing 180gn lead slugs. Ideally I'd like to buy propellant because you don't have to register it over the counter here in Communist California.

Do I need to compress the cartridges?

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
Thanks for the link. Question though, I've reloaded for conventional modern firearms but am looking specifically for powder types suited for black powder substitutes that do not need to be registered in California and are safe for 45 LC loads in the type of conversion mentioned. Is there a BP or Pyrodex variant anyone can recommend?
 
scot th rock said:
Spoke with Walt Kirsk (Yes, he picks up the phone personally) to get an idea of the powder and charge I should load. He indicated I have options because most .45 LC is generally not loaded for hot rounds and anything I put through the bore BP or commercial should work without over stressing the max CUP's on the revolver or cylinder.
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Kirst, not Kirsk.

Most modern .45 Colt is loaded considerably hotter than any .45 Colt black powder loads, which is exactly the reason why several cartridge makers have come out with what are termed "cowboy" loads. Those are commercial, smokeless powder loads that are deliberately loaded light, to approximate the pressure and velocity of historical black powder loads.

Will modern, full power .45 Colt ammunition blow up a Kirst Konverter cylinder? Very possibly. Kirst's web site says:

Kirst Cartridge Konverters™ are rated “For Black Powder or equivalent loads only,” which includes the smokeless, light target loads commonly sold for Cowboy Action Shooting.
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As long as you are willing to put up with the need for careful cleaning soon after every time you shoot the gun, you are probably wise to be looking for black powder loads. I'd suggest getting in touch with Mike Beliveau. He probably knows as much about these "konverters" as anyone other than Walt Kirst himself. I think Mike posts here occasionally, or used to. Try duelist1954.
 
Question though, I've reloaded for conventional modern firearms but am looking specifically for powder types suited for black powder substitutes that do not need to be registered in California and are safe for 45 LC loads in the type of conversion mentioned. Is there a BP or Pyrodex variant anyone can recommend?
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Sorry, I don't know anything about California smokeless powder regulations.

There are direct black powder subsititutes.
Black Horn 209 is the only one that's truly a smokeless powder and most every state accepts it as a being a volume for volume equivalent muzzle loading powder that's allowed for use during muzzle loader hunting seasons.

Others include American Pioneer Powder, which is also sold under the Shockey's Gold label, is an ascorbic acid or suger based powder without any sulfur and very little charcoal, under 2%.

Hodgdon 777 is another powder that's similar to American Pioneer in that it doesn't contain sulfur. It is more energetic than APP producing more felt recoil and velocity.

Then there's Pyrodex which is more similar to black powder in formulation in that it contains more sulfur and more charcoal than the other substitutes.

Each powder has it own fouling characteristics.

Only Black Horn 209 won't produce fouling that can end up forming corrosion since it's smokeless.
Whether it's regulated by CA or not is unknown to me.
Perhaps you can let us know if it is or isn't.

I listed the substitute powders above in my perceived rank of ease of cleaning with the easiest to clean at the beginning.
 
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"Ideally I'd like to buy propellant because you don't have to register it over the counter here in Communist California."


I think he meant he wants to buy propellants to reload as you can buy powder with no strings in California, but must go through an FFL background check to buy ammo.
 
Scot th rock, I am shooting "cowboy loads" of Trail Boss smokeless powder when am not shooting black powder.
Is it fact or roomer that Calif. only allows possession of 1 lb. of black powder at a time?
 
Scot th rock --

Please clarify for us -- are you looking for black powder and black powder substitute (meaning such as Goex) loads only, or are you also interested in smokeless powder loads that operate in the same pressure range as black powder?

I interpreted your post to be asking just about black powder and substitutes. If you want to consider smokeless powder, by all means look at Trail Boss. This is exactly what it's intended for.
 
BlackHorn 209 may fly under the radar as a smokeless powder with some vendors.
The company touts it as being a high performance muzzle loading substitute powder and doesn't advertise that it's actually smokeless on the container.
And there's extensive cartridge reloading data for it.
Note that a small container only has 10 ozs. of powder, while the bulk container has 5 lbs.

In addition, here's the BH209 Loading Data page for black powder cartridges. --->>> https://www.blackhorn209.com/load-data/

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product-category/reloading-supplies/powder/black-powder-substitutes/

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/search?SearchTerm=blackhorn209
 
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A .45 Colt case full of BP or equivalent (and it needs to be full or else use some kind of filler material to eliminate any air space in the cartridge) is a darn sight stouter than most modern standard pressure smokeless loads. Doesn't have the sustained pressure curve of smokeless but full case BP loads are NOT lightly recoiling nor low velocity even though they are safe for the gun....suggest if you wish to use BP or BP sub at a more moderate level it's easier to use a shorter brass such as .45 SW Schofield or .45 Cowboy Special specifically made to shoot lighter BP loads without having to use fillers. The reason the army adopted the shorter Schofield cartridge was due to the significant recoil of the standard blackpowder .45 Colt ammo of the day.

Most modern conversion cylinders are rated for light 'cowboy' smokeless powder loads, which can be assembled easier than using an actual BP or substitute, don't require BP-compatible bullet lubes or fillers, and don't necessitate the prompt and thorough cleaning BP does. Trail Boss is smokeless powder and not a BP substitute, but is definitely a good and safe choice for this application as it is bulky and therefore physically difficult to overload in the .45 Colt case. Also don't need to worry about filling any empty space in the cartridge. I mostly shoot 200gr bullets in my conversion with 6-6.5gr of TrailBoss which feel extremely light compared to rounds loaded full with BP or Pyrodex.
 
Ifishsum said:
The reason the army adopted the shorter Schofield cartridge was due to the significant recoil of the standard blackpowder .45 Colt ammo of the day.
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The reason the Army adopted the shorter .45 Schofield round (actually, they adopted a variant of it called .45 Government) was that the .45 Colt cartridge was too long to fit in the Schofield revolver that the Army had adopted as an alternate standard sidearm. Rather than having to deal with supplying two similar but incompatible cartridges, it made sense to adopt a single cartridge that would function in both firearms.

reduced recoil was basically a fringe benefit.
 
WOW !!! You'd think Walt would know something about his own product!!

My instructions said 1000 fps or less. Guess what? None of the commercially available 45C standard ammo is rated at 1000 fps!! What does that mean? That means it's max pressure is within tier 1 safety limits! If you load your on ammo, you won't find any loadings for a 250gr. bullet that reaches 1000 fps in a teir 1 loading (14000 psi max). What in the heck is to fret over?!! It's always amazed me how people will over think things to death! Yet some will come running in and start the "you can't compare fps to max pressure argument"! As right as that is, there aren't any standard ammo offerings . . . commercial or from the reloading tables . . . that end up with a round that isn't tier 1 safe with over 1000 fps listed (accept for a couple of light weight bullets that can reach the fps threshold)! It's really not as difficult as many want to make it!

That's not to say there isn't any " high power" rounds available on the shelf (but they do have warnings so pay attention!!!) I'm specifically referring to "standard" tier 1 rounds.


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
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I used to load my NMA conversion cylinder with 900 fps/220 grains or 1000 fps/200 grains without any problem for almost 10 years.
Mine is the old model with only 5 chambers, not the new one with 6.
In any case, those are pretty stout loads for general use, and if I need more power I would go to another platform, i.e. a carbine or a more robust revolver.
 
45 Dragoon said:
My instructions said 1000 fps or less. Guess what? None of the commercially available 45C standard ammo is rated at 1000 fps!!
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These are the type of ammo that the Kirst Konverter is rated for:

750 fps - https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...y-45-colt-lrnfp-250-grain-50-rounds?a=1585129

761 fps - https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...ads-45-colt-lfn-250-grain-50-rounds?a=1583994

761 fps - https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...ot-45-colt-lfn-250-grain-300-rounds?a=1613549

600 fps (200-gr) - https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...5-long-colt-lfp-200-grain-50-rounds?a=1837158
 
Aquila Blanca, what makes you say that? You need to let Walt Kirst know this, he will probably be surprised to learn something about his product (and be very thankful!!)..
All my 45C loadings are the same and they feed my Dragoons and Armys and when I had it, my R&D (not Kirst) 6 shot cyl in my Pietta made Remy!! Wonder why they would make them "weaker" today than they used to? . . . hmmm . . . that seems a little backwards.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
45 Dragoon said:
Aquila Blanca, what makes you say that? You need to let Walt Kirst know this, he will probably be surprised to learn something about his product (and be very thankful!!)..
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Your sarcasm is underwhelming. Mercifully, I don't think it's necessary for me to call Walt to inform him of information that he has helpfully provided on his own web site.

https://shop.kirstkonverter.com/?product=pale-rider-1858-remington-kirst-konverter-assembly

"Low velocity ammo"

https://kirstkonverter.com/kirst-pdfs/SafetyWarnt.pdf

"USE ONLY Black Powder or equivalent loads; use of loads other than these will void all warranties, expressed or implied."

https://kirstkonverter.com/kirst-pdfs/FAQ.pdf

Q. What ammo is required?
A. Black powder or smokeless, lead bullets only, under 1000 FPS (as required of Cowboy
Loads)

Q. Can I shoot smokeless powder?
A. Yes. Stay under 1000 FPS (Cowboy Loads)

And, finally, the passage I cited from the Kirst Konverter site in a previous post:

Kirst Cartridge Konverters™ are rated “For Black Powder or equivalent loads only,” which includes the smokeless, light target loads commonly sold for Cowboy Action Shooting.
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(emphasis added)

Walt specifically mentions "light" and "cowboy" loads multiple times on his web site. I think it's obvious that, if he took the trouble to mention this type of ammo so many times, that's what he wants people to use. Why do you have a problem with my simply pointing out what the web site says?
 
AB, thanks for posting the Q&A!! Right there in your own post "under 1000 fps". Twice no less!!! He may mention light but that is about as vague as it gets!! How fast is fast? How tall is tall? But when you get a real number to hang your hat on, that is a definitive mark!! One that me, you, anybody that reloads or can read numbers on the side of a box can draw a conclusion that it's " safe" or not!

I rest my case!! Any unanswered questions please refer to the op's statement from Walt and or my explanation of where that comes from.

I realize 600, 750, 761 fps is below 1000 fps, but so is 775, 800, 825, 850, 875, 900, 925, 950, 975, 980 . . . sheeeesh!!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
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Centurion said:
You're right, my mistake, I was talking about my RDs, not Kirst. Sorry!
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Unless something has changed recently, R&D doesn't have a 6-shot, either. Ken Howells sold the rights to the 6-shot .45 Colt conversion to somebody (Taylor's, maybe?) several years ago, and now he can't sell it. He sells a 5-shot conversion, instead. I think all his 6-shot conversions are for .36 caliber Navy revolvers.
 
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