.17 Mach 2 rifles?

Been there said:
You've got it backwards Brian , the size of the cone of distubed air produced by the extra velocity means greater suseptability to wind.
That is why high velocity ammunition is not used by those who wish to win or be competetive at 75yd outdoor rimfire competitions. .22 Bullets exceeding 1100fps are more effected by wind.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that the 17HM2, firing an identical bullet but at 300-500fps slower speed than the 17HMR will be LESS effected by wind and this is because the faster bullet has a larger "cone a disturbed air"? And even though they're both well over 2,000fps, you base this theory on 75 yard competition shooting subsonic bullets?

One would almost wonder why, then, anyone would ever want a bullet to be faster, since it makes wind drift worse.


And just so I'm clear on this, you're saying that the HM2 is a 120 yard max gun and the HMR is a 175 yard max gun and you have to shoot rabbits never less than 100 yards but the rifle that's BETTER at that job is the one with a 120 yard max range, firing the same exact bullet, slower because slower drifts less in the wind?
 
Wow. I had it wrong all along. Same bullet, slower speed means less wind drift. So the superiority of fast 22-cal centerfires over slower 22 centerfires is a myth. I should sell my 22-250 and buy a 22 Hornet. I was under the impression that an object exposed to a force for a longer amount of time would see more movement, that an object acted upon by a force would be affected to a greater degree by more exposure to that force (notice I said affected), and so presumably the same would apply to the force of gravity. Slower bullets will presumably drop less as well. Wow. I had it all wrong.

And I was under the impression the reason match shooters shoot standard velocity ammo in matches has nothing to do with wind drift, it has to do with the accuracy (consistent velocity. consistent bullet weight, consistent bullet profile, consistent center of mass) of match ammo, and that virtually all match ammo is subsonic so as to avoid the whole trans-sonic disturbance unpleasantness. Wow. I am glad you guys set me straight.

As for usefulness, if it goes bang, I like it. I see no point arguing "which is best". I like blondes. My best friend likes brunettes. I like steak. My wife likes veggies. Who cares? If you like the 17 cals, good for you. If you prefer the 22 cals, great! Shoot them. Quit trying to justify your opinion. Because it is just an opinion, and we know that everybody has one, just like eh, er, um, well you know.
 
No Brian, that is not what I said, I have claimed no distance for the HMR.
Remember, we are talking real world hunting conditions here & real experience, not theoretical hypothesis. A small cultural difference in language needs clarification first. A theory ,where I live, is based on observation, experimentation & repeatable results, not an opinion or a belief.
The .17M2 loses speed much more quickly than the HMR, muzzle velocity is less relevant. 100 - 120 yd shots with M2 are more consistant than 150 yd shots with the HMR, but this is really 22 mag territory for repete, humane kills. The other signifcant advantage with the M2 is that it is suitable for use in semi-automatic rifles.Think, a 10/22 on steroids, greater range & flatter trajectory.
The real problem is, in context , the HMR is the one I have trouble finding a gap for.
 
So the HM2 starts out slower and loses speed more quickly and that's a good thing?


Been there said:
Your figures for effective distance work fine on paper but in the real world, on game, the .22lr is a 75yd proposition , .17M2 - 120yd & the .22magnum - 160yd.
Yes, we have all stretched out & shot them all at greater distances on stationary targets but it doesn't take much wind to make that impractical, when hunting.

.22lr & 17hmr are of no use, as 80,000 to 120,000 are shot there each year & the rabbits are too weary to sit any closer than 100yds or hunker down untill you almost on top of them. Wind off the Southern Alps, swirling in the gullies pushes the high velocity, light 17hmr bullets all over the place. We use 17MK2 ,.22MAG .222 & .223. & shotguns
Last trip, we took 1791 rabbits in 4 days.
Click to expand...

So, the HM2, firing the exact same bullet 300-500fps slower than the HMR is better in the wind. That is your claim here, yes?

BTW, I'm well familiar with the effective range of the HMR, having used one on woodchucks (groundhogs) at 200 yards and a bit more. It's very humane at your claimed 160 yard 22mag range.
 
Last edited:
All I know about the Mach II is from observation on prairie dogs. Rifle newbie, first time out with (IIRC) an Anschutz. Taylorce1 lasering the shots.

Fairly destructive at 100 yards, easy hits. After figuring holdover and wind, deadly at 200 yards, with the hit percentage increasing with experience.
 
Been There said:
Never mind Brian, argumentum ad hominem is not interesting.
Click to expand...

I haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about. I haven't made a single comment about you personally. I have only addressed your claims.

You have made specific claims about an object and physics, which I have either asked for clarification or refuted with logic.

The only thing close to any ad homonym is this statement by you:

Remember, we are talking real world hunting conditions here & real experience, not theoretical hypothesis. A small cultural difference in language needs clarification first. A theory ,where I live, is based on observation, experimentation & repeatable results, not an opinion or a belief.
Click to expand...

Clearly an attempted "jab" intended to say that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Your arguments are refuted by physics and experience. Faster bullets drift less in the wind. The 17HMR is "suitable for use in semi-auto rifles", Volquartsen makes one. Alexander Arms makes one. It's simply not suited to be dropped into a .22LR action and expected to work. There's nothing extra scary about the 17HMR that makes it (practically) the lone cartridge in world history that can't be used in a semi-auto.

You can't make unsupportable and unsubstantiated claims and them scream ad homonym well they're refuted.
 
I bought lots of 17HM2 ammo and a reamer.
I saw the ammo price as dumping when the cartridge was introduced.
I bought lifetime supply when the ammo was between 10 and 14 cents a round.


My disappointments have been:
1) I have quit going on 2,000 mile ground squirrel trips
2) The 10/22 with all the mods will sometimes still blow out a case head. Eye protection is a must.

The success story is I gave my brother a 17 Rem Rem 700 take off barrel and he put it on a $25 Marlin bolt action 22LR, and he is killing prairie dogs with it.

As far as killing raccoons with brain shots, the CCI CB short from a 24" barrel sounds like a BB gun. A 29 gr bullet at 750 fps will go all the way to the brain stem, and stop the animal. Great accuracy is possible with new CCI CB short ammo, but old CCI CB short ammo is inaccurate.
 
I thought the Savage 30g "Stevens Favorite" would have been the perfect foremat for the 17 M2. Never came about, and as the tiny rimfire fades away It never will.
 
I started shooting prairie dogs in 1949 with a 22 LR rifle. Some time later I got a 22 WMR for taking longer shots. When the 17 HMR cartridge first came out I got a rifle and found it to be far better than the 22 WMR rifle round. So I then got a 17 HM2 rifle. During the 2005 year I shot a bit over 2,000 prairie dogs with the Cooper 57 M LVT model 17 HM2 and 17 HMR rifles. I don't know about shooting larger varmints with the 17 rim fire rounds but I ll not give up my rifles. I live in prairie dog country and ordered a large amount of Ely and Hornady 17 HM2 and Hornady 17 HMR ammo befor they became hard to find.
 
Not a one, but you'll notice I haven't made a single negative comment about the HM2 except that it doesn't fill any gap because there is no gap to fill. I've done a lot of shooting with 22lr and 17hmr. I don't need another cartridge to tell me there's no gap between them.

The 22lr is perfectly adequate out to at least 75 yards and I've made enough shots at 90 to know it's good to 90 under the right conditions with the right ammo. The HMR is good to 200 and slightly beyond under the right conditions. Here's the kicker though... it really doesn't have anything to do with the HM2... the HMR works perfectly well at 5 yards too, or 2 yards. It's not as if the 22 stops at 75 and the HMR doesn't work at anything less than 120 so the HM2 "fills that gap" between them.

The HM2 doesn't work any better than a 22 at 5 yards or 30 yards or 50 yards. Considering the energy numbers of CCI Stinger or Rem Yellow Jackets, the HM2 is worse if anything at close range. Maybe the HM2 is better than a 22 beyond 50 yards (doesn't matter the range, pick your own number) but what doesn't the HMR do at that range?

No matter the number you pick, the HMR is faster, flatter and has less wind drift. Where ever the 22 leaves off, the HMR picks right up and whatever the HM2 does, the HMR is firing *the same exact, identical bullet* faster, flatter and with less drift.

There. Is. No. Gap.
 
Well... reading this was pretty crazy...

... I built a custom bolt action on an old Marlin, using a barrel liner... the reason I built mine ??? I feel it's a perfect cartridge for dispatching varmints around the farm building site, almost no possible Ricochet or recoil, the bullet pretty much stops with what ever it hits ( can't say that about a 22 or 22 Mag ) I've yet to dent or pierce any of the outbuildings or vehicles around the building site... It's accurate enough to head shoot pidgins off the silo, from 100 + yards ( I need at least a field rest to do that :o ) MRS uses it more often than not, as the outside doggie seems to let her know he has coons treed, after I've headed off for work...

I built it especially for shooting those fast running red pine squirrels, but it's deadly on coons at base of tree distances... I buy ammo when ever I can find it... unfortunately there hasn't been much around lately, & I never find any locally... I've been waiting to try ( & had a lot of hope for ) the new Hornady light weight sintered metal jacketed bullets... so far, I've only managed to get one box of 50, so I haven't played with it much, otherwise I generally shoot Elley ammo in mine...

Ive had it out to my range, it wears a BSA sweet 17 scope ( which is intended for the RFM cartridge, but it works pretty good for the M-2... BTW... the 17 will still punch a hole through the front of a standard steel 55 gallon drum ( what I use for target backers ) at 150 yards, but at 175 yards, it won't punch a drum any more... most 22 LR cartridges don't penetrate at 100 yards, & I'm lucky if I can hit a drum at 150 yards with a 22 LR

those that haven't tried it, should just skip it all together :eek: that leaves more ammo for me ;)
 
Last edited:
Brian P.,

I wasn't attacking your opinion, just curious what it was based on.

We disagree about the utility of the Mach 2 round, but I don't have a problem with that.

I've hunted with all the rimfire rounds, including the 5mm long ago (except for the new Winchester .17 round) and all have proven useful, but for me the Mach 2 is the best .17 round for small game hunting.

Until recently, the .22LR earns its place based on cost vs performance, but if I had to spend the same amount for both, the Mach 2 would be my choice.

If I need more power than the Mach 2, I find the premium light bullet loads in .22WMR to perform just as well as the .17 HMR (and are very accurate in my rifles), and then you have the option of the .40 grain loads too.

I still have .22 LRs, .22 WMRs and .17 HM2s.... don't own any .17 HMRs anymore but I do understand why it remains popular.
 
Gaps:
My father had a 22 rifle single shot, a 30-06 bolt action, and a 12 ga shotgun.
He thought he had them all.

I am doing 62 different cartridges, but I probably only fire 5 or 10 different ones per year.


I think my father could have had a 17M2, a 7mmRM, and a 10 ga, and thought he had all the gaps filled in a little better.
 
I thought the Savage 30g "Stevens Favorite" would have been the perfect foremat for the 17 M2. Never came about, and as the tiny rimfire fades away It never will.
Click to expand...

funny you should say that. My uncle gave me an old original Favorite that had been neglected to the point of the bore looking much like a .22 cal smoothbore, and the extractor rounded off to the point that it probably would have not even tried to extract a fired case. I started the conversion to the HM2, but they relocated the machine shop at the company where I work, and I haven't been able to finish the work (yet. Hope springs eternal...:rolleyes:) I found a 17 cal barrel blank online and bought it. I've turned down the shank to fit the receiver, after reaming the receiver out to smooth it up and ensure a nice snug fit with the barrel. I really only need to bore the hole for the bolt on the underside, and mill/file out the notch and fit the extractor, and it will be ready to chamber. I hope I haven't missed out on the ammo supply...:(
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top