12yr old girl died while loading a Muzzleoader.

Anyway, here's my thinking. One kid dies while loading a muzzle loader. Yet, every year, half a million kids age 5 and younger get into household medications and are poisoned. Rat poison alone endangers 10,000 children every year. 45,000 children die every year from unintended poisoning.
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The antis ignore any argument that employs logic.

Even so....
Iron overdose is the most common cause of poisoning among children under 6 years old. They get into the vitamins (their own, or their parents), and eat them like a jar full of candy.... :(

The prenatal vitamins so often recommended by pediatricians and OBs, in today's world, have particularly high iron doses and are the most common 'offender'.
 
The differences between other deaths because of poisoning, car accidents, alcohol are that:

1. The gun is a totem of conservative political values and thus fundamentally evil. That is a major force in the attacks on gun ownership. If only conservatives used Draino, the left would hate Draino.

2. The gun has a fundamental core conceptualization of an instrument of lethal force and its other uses are not strong descriptors of its use. This use is not acceptable to many folks.

3. Other causes of death have a fundamental core concept of a nonlethal utility and these outweigh the risk. If you don't accept the need for private ownership of instruments of lethal force, then you won't be bother by the figures that Skans reported.

I mentioned elsewhere that you really have to know your stuff to be a responsible gun owner. Some gun owners fail in that regard.
 
We teach/preach; Muzzle-Up-And-Away.

Back to muzzle loaders, I am always relieved this does not happen more often, simply because these devices require the muzzle to be moved through so much angle to be loaded, through a more complicated process. There are simply more places and ways to make mistakes when loading a smoke pole than a bolt gun, between shots
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This is true for in addition to observing the standard, safety rules, there are those that are dedicated to M/L's. Regardless of what and how many rounds you shoot, it only takes one to end a life. ...... ;)

By the way, our stated teaches that on loading an M/L, you "always" point the muzzle, Up-And-Away. That doesn't mean a person won't startle the muzzle. I have seen this happen too many times. ..... :cool:

Be Safe !!!
 
Trust is good, control is best.

I agree with a lot of what's being said out here. But while I believe wholeheartedly in freedoms, I think freedom without restrictions can be dangerous. We DO have a lot of irresponsible people out there who possess firearms. How many firearms incidents go unreported? I don't believe there can ever be too much firearm knowledge, isn't that the reason a lot of us suscribe to forums or surf the internet. There are states where very little knowledge or training is required to purchase a weapon. Maybe more realistic training is needed to slow down the the anti-gun lobbies. Proof that gun owners take weapons ownership seriously can't hurt. Like a lot of you, I have have some background. I was a Army grunt who received specialized training in weapons. I trained soldiers and now I train hunters in weapons skills. Personally I am always looking for ways to better my training and to come up with ways to instill in my students the fact that firearms are not toys and can be your friend or your enemy. I don't want to lose my freedom because of the irresponsibilities of others. Let's train better. Isn't better training a way to better understanding?
 
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My kids were not perfect. I was not a perfect kid. But the kids I see at grocery stores or restaurants are completely out of control and their parents seem clueless on what to do. I don't think there should be any gun anywhere near those families.

I grew up on a small farm. My dad kept a 22 rifle at the ready for emergencies. It was not in a safe or under lock and key. Dad told us kids not to go near it or touch it. My God we didn't because of the consequences. And I assure you the punishment would not have been a simple time out.
 
I agree with a lot of what's being said out here. But while I believe wholeheartedly in freedoms, I think freedom without restrictions can be dangerous. We DO have a lot of irresponsible people out there who possess firearms. How many firearms incidents go unreported? I don't believe there can ever be too much firearm knowledge, isn't that the reason a lot of us suscribe to forums or surf the internet. There are states where very little knowledge or training is required to purchase a weapon. Maybe more realistic training is needed to slow down the the anti-gun lobbies. Proof that gun owners take weapons ownership seriously can't hurt. Like a lot of you, I have have some background. I was a Army grunt who received specialized training in weapons. I trained soldiers and now I train hunters in weapons skills. Personally I am always looking for ways to better my training and to come up with ways to instill in my students the fact that firearms are not toys and can be your friend or your enemy. I don't want to lose my freedom because of the irresponsibilities of others. Let's train better. Isn't better training a way to better understanding?
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Yet there are states that do not bear out your fears about 'unrestricted freedoms'...

I'll toss out Vermont as being one that requires no special 'training' in order to purchase, own, or carry, yet there are not rivers of blood running in the valleys due to accidents, negligence and intentional violence...

Training is good...

Mandatory training is not a 'freedom'...
 
Isn't better training a way to better understanding?
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"Training" comes in lots of forms, and needn't be mandatory nor "formal" to be just as valid.

All the training in the world won't combat stupidity and inattention, and none of it will change how anti-gunners think
 
So you guys want to know how to pull at the heartstrings of people who are anti-gun or lean anti-gun? Get them over to our side? You are right, no string of words backed by statistic, set of statistics, comparisons to other "dangerous" things, examples, etc. is truly going to reach these people. But, I believe that every one of them would do a 180 on their views of guns and gun control, given their personal involvement in a set of circumstances. Those life-changing events, unfortunately, include things like being a first hand victim of assault, rape, victim of gang violence, car jacking, rioting, home invasion, and the inability to summon a police officer during such a life-threatening event.

Every year, a very significant number of anti-gun blowhards or their wives, husbands, children or parents will experience genuine violence at the hand of some unknown opportunistic thug. Then, its personal to them. And, that's when they might be able to be convinced that a gun would at least empower them to cope with such situations. Very few people revel in the thought of being an eternally hopeless victim.
 
Then, its personal to them.
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I think that's a very solid route. No one 'needs' a gun. Until they need a gun.
I like to make a mental cutout of some stories taken from the local newspaper and keep them posted to my cranial refrigerator for just these sorts of conversations. I usually just drop one.

"Did you see that story of the local school girls who ran to our neighbor's house when a van tried to abduct them off the street on their way home from school?"
"Yeah, crazy!"
"What would you have done if it were your house they ran to and the guys in the van followed the girls to your door?"
[insert thoughtful look here]

"Hey, did you see that story of the guy downtown who was accosted by 3 guys while shoveling snow in his driveway?"
"No"
"Wow, what would you do if that happened to you on this side of town?"
[insert thoughtful look here]
 
Be mindful that there are some out there, both who own guns and do not own them as well as those who are pro and are anti gun who would gladly choose being the victim over having to pull the trigger against another human being, even if said individual wished to do them and or their own harm.

I've run into a few of them, and it boggles my mind that anyone would willingly choose to be a victim.

Of course it's these kind of folks that we'll never reach.
 
skans said:
Every year, a very significant number of anti-gun blowhards or their wives, husbands, children or parents will experience genuine violence at the hand of some unknown opportunistic thug. Then, its personal to them. And, that's when they might be able to be convinced that a gun would at least empower them to cope with such situations. Very few people revel in the thought of being an eternally hopeless victim.
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Yeah, it's so personal for Gabby Giffords that she and her hubby want to own guns, but they don't want other people to enjoy the same right.

I'm sorry she got shot, but I'm glad she's no longer a member of Congress.
 
I've run into a few of them, and it boggles my mind that anyone would willingly choose to be a victim.
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They're not really choosing to be victims. To put it that way insults them a bit.

There are simply people who don't believe it'll happen to them. There are those who can't cope with harming another human being.
 
can anyone explain how she shot herself while loading the gun? I started to read the other posts but they turned in to Bloomberg tripe and what not.....
does anyone have some on topic facts about how this actually happened?
 
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can anyone explain how she shot herself while loading the gun?
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'She' didn't...

It was one of the two other people that were with her getting ready to hunt who had the AD/ND...

In one story I read it said the 'two other people' were "family members", and in another story it said they were her parents...

That is where the story ends as far as news sources I could find...

And that is probably enough for those involved...
 
We will know and it's important !!!

can anyone explain how she shot herself while loading the gun? I started to read the other posts but they turned in to Bloomberg tripe and what not.....
does anyone have some on topic facts abut how this actually happened?
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Not really, I have been following this and have not seen much follow-up. I am in contact with some of the DNR folks but for obvious reasons not much info is being released. ... ;)

In the next couple of months, the DNR will be conducting Spring Work Shops and an item that is always on the agenda, are hunting accidents. It's very interesting to see how these accidents are broken down to the minutest detail. Again, I take this accident very seriously and will provide more info as I get it. ..... ;)

I have tried to "speculate" how this could have happened and came up with three possibilities. .... :confused:

Be Safe !!!
 
They're not really choosing to be victims. To put it that way insults them a bit.
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But they are making a choice. Refusing to face reality IS a choice.

Insult?

Pointing out facts is not insulting. If the shoe fits ......
 
How do we rebut?
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It is unfortunate but there really is no way to, that will have any positive effect.

They are not driven by logic or they would focus on something that is much more deadly, like the poison example on the last page.

Kind of like people flying/driving across the country (or around the world) to go to a global warming conference, emotion not logic, is the driving force.

They see stories like this as an opportunity, not a tragedy. How do you go about reasoning with someone like that?
 
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