12GA Rifle From Hell

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two 58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon, in volume so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also. The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns just for testing the different style guns, and different loads. In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting 8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds. Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels. Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break action locks up like a bank vault. Real strong.

And an ultimate big bore from history.

ED

 

[HUBEL458]

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers.. We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and 58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575" 470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel. That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases. Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28".. I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just to show all the uses the case has.

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases. It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus. I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

 

[jmortimer]

My favorite thread. Good news on the upcoming wad availability. I was thinking this would be a good mild/moderate .578 Minie bullet choice for a rifled Mossberg 500. Cast with Lyman's #2
http://leeprecision.com/mold-578-478-m.html

 

[HUBEL458]

I have similiar Lee 58cal slug with more pointed nose weighing
500gr and about 8 other different slugs I have picked up
on GB and other places. The variety of noses and weights
that all will fit that 12ga sabot we are working on as well as
fitting a 20ga shocup is a real boon to slug loaders.
And some of them fit my 585HE barrels very well
There are whole bunch of molds to make them from .575" to
.590".. And from 320gr to 605gr in Minie style and R.E.A.L style.
I have some that are pointed and 640gr guy made with solid base
for my 585HE. They are heatreated and take any high speed
without leading. Of course leading no problem with 12ga sabots
or 20ga wadcups.Ed

 

[Eghad]

Them loads is gonna leave a mark.....

 

[HUBEL458]

I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
chokes will have pics later.ED

 

[HUBEL458]

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.

I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed

 

[HUBEL458]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

 

[alex0535]

Just saw this thread for the first time...

Your 12GA rifle is a monster of a rifle Hubel. Bet it works as an effective alternative to a chainsaw for taking down trees.

Is this wildcat actually called "12GA From Hell"? It seems like you played a significant part in its development and ".700 Hubel" has a nice ring to it. Did anyone else do it first?

Also if Godzilla ever shows up, I vote that we call you to take care of it.

 

[HUBEL458]

The first idea for the 12ga FH case built from bmg brass and the name
was from Robgunbuilder over on the Accuratereloading big bore forum.

I just helped make it famous and worked to develope, along with
many others, a variety of applications and guns.That is what
we call it although the barrels are just marked 12ga and the length.
It is in essence a longer 12ga case. I have brass I could make
them longer. The WW2 military had shotgun cases much longer
than ours for starting big aircraft engines.

The long 700 HE belted case is the first one like it
that I know of..Ed

 

[silvermane_1]

i wonder how much that .700 Hubel ammo would cost ?

 

[HUBEL458]

You can reload, you get 700H cases from me, I got dies,
jacketed bullets can gotten 2 to 4 bucks each.
700H 3.25" cases $5 and can be reloaded forever.Main cost
is the bullets.

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.

Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

 

[HUBEL458]

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but
enough to find goos combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. Going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

 

[HUBEL458]

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed

 

[Budda]

This just in....viagra changes name to Hubel458.......

You are a mans man!

Best thread ever!

 

[jmortimer]

"Best thread ever!"
Agree

 

[HUBEL458]

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

 

[HUBEL458]

First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

 

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.

Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.

Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
instead of 65,000...Ed

 

[HUBEL458]

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed