12GA Rifle From Hell
- Thread starter HUBEL458
- Start date
FrankenMauser
New member
That depends on the laws in the state where you hunt.
Where I hunt, it would be considered a shotgun. The only legal versions would be 20 ga, 16 ga, 12 ga, and 10 ga. ...But they would be legal for big game and predators (Antelope, Deer, Elk, Moose, big cats, Bears, etc.).
Yes by fed law they are shotgun shells with a longer chamber.
As long as the chamber fires shorter cases.IE 12ga 3" fired in
12ga 3.5" chamber, or older shorter 10ga case in 3.5"...
Hunting laws may vary , like 10ga is limit for
migratory waterfowl. For big game here like deer,
about any big bore as long as it is shoulder fired.
Limits being mag capacity.Ed
As long as the chamber fires shorter cases.IE 12ga 3" fired in
12ga 3.5" chamber, or older shorter 10ga case in 3.5"...
Hunting laws may vary , like 10ga is limit for
migratory waterfowl. For big game here like deer,
about any big bore as long as it is shoulder fired.
Limits being mag capacity.Ed
SurplusShooter
New member
That 2ga makes the 30-06 look like .22
.
.Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.
1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.
2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, and could be called 24ga FH.Ed
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.
1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.
2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, and could be called 24ga FH.Ed
ome 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs
Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.
740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase Cup has it own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.
Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
barrel. Barrels- 1.32" at breech- 1.070 muzzle.Ed
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs
Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.
740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase Cup has it own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.
Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
barrel. Barrels- 1.32" at breech- 1.070 muzzle.Ed
Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.
But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.
Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.
But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.
Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed
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I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
brass case from RMC.
28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.
The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
brass case from RMC.
28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.
The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED
Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.
Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.
Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed
10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.
I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.
For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.
These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.
I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.
For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.
These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed
Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.
Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.
Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.
If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.
Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.
Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.
If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed
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Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brasscases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and machine them.Ed.
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brasscases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and machine them.Ed.
The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.
For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.
And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.
In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.
For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.
And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.
In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed
Remember these from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed
In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that rifled,
choke bored 12ga paradox shotguns with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.
And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work in a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.
And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed
choke bored 12ga paradox shotguns with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.
And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work in a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.
And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed
Thanks to rattler on 24hr for the old time pictures,
and the guys really like them.
Some info about the early days of slug guns;
In my Greener's book he states that rifled,
choke bored 12ga paradox shotguns with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.
And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.
Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing many brass case old slug loads.
Notice the 20bore/gauge one, seems as hotrod 20s are old hat....
Both Pictures from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.
2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with.Ed
and the guys really like them.
Some info about the early days of slug guns;
In my Greener's book he states that rifled,
choke bored 12ga paradox shotguns with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.
And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.
Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing many brass case old slug loads.
Notice the 20bore/gauge one, seems as hotrod 20s are old hat....
Both Pictures from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.
2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with.Ed
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