127gr 9mm hollow point...+p+?

I carried this ammo (and its SXT predecessor) for a couple of years in my HK P7M8, and consider it to be a serious contender for the "Best 9mm Load Period" title. I have put enough of this stuff through the pistol without damage to feel very comfortable recommending it. I did eventually end up going to a heavier spring, but have had no issues with the gun getting beat up by the amount put through it. The only reason I switched carry loads is because I got a great deal on a bunch of Federal 9BPLE 115 gr. +P+, which is also a confidence-inspiring load. I fully expect to carry the Winchester Ranger again.

I think it is reasonable to expect that any modern gun designed and built in Europe can handle +P and +P+ ammo. As has been mentioned here, SAAMI underrates the 9mm. I understand this is the result of the great variety of old 9mm pistols that used to regularly be imported from around the world. The result is the perception amongst American shooters that +P and +P+ are extra hot. I believe it is more accurate to characterize ammo that adheres to SAAMI maximum pressures as extra cool.

I'm sure there are manufacturers, especially in the US, that build guns around SAAMI max pressures. Certainly use standard pressure loads in those. However, +p or +P+ in a modern European service pistol like the Cougar would not worry me. Personally, I'm jealous of your good fortune. If I found that ammo for $25 a box, I would have bought every last cartridge of the stuff that fellow had. Judging by the apocryphal story he passed on to you, it looks like the poor guy was completely ignorant as to what he had. Lucky you!
 
Found the pressure on this round (it's in the fine print on the bottom of the box). Says "around" 40,000 CUP. The box also says that's 20-25% higher than standard pressure ammunition. In comparison, a "warm" standard pressure loading in one of my manuals shows 33,000 CUP so that's right on at +21%
 
In the state of Nevada, you can ONLY use HP for SD.
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Huh, what?

If you don't mind, would you please clarify.

Does this mean that you are illegal to use hollowpoints for practice? As in, trying to find out if your gun functions with it and where it impacts the target.

Or, does it mean you are illegal using hardball for self-defense? As in you have nothing else and defend yourself with 115 grain FMJ and then are breaking the law.

Bart Noir
 
Based on the deal you got at purchase, you could sell the +P+ at a handsome profit and buy the same number of rounds in a lighter load if desired with a few $$ left over. You've got to be resourceful when money is tight. :cool:
 
phattacorider,

Yea they are ugly! Thing is would you like to see your real nice fancy guns mucked up with dirt, or rain, or dropped on pavement, or shot 50,000 rounds?

Glocks can take all that and keep a'shooten. No they ain't nice looking, but neither are my hammers I use around the house (but I buy good ones, not cheap ones!)

And the Glock 19 gets around 1270-1280 fps with the 127gr +p+ load. Not a .357 Magnum but getting there.

And here is a hint. I have a quantity of British L7A1 subgun ammo. Chronos out of a Glock 17 with a Bar-Sto conventional rifled barrel at 1346.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1062359

And soon I'm gonna try it out of my Glock 26 (when the weather gets better) and clock it to. I'll post the info here.

If the 26 hits 1350 with it's polygon barrel, no pressure signs, then I have my FMJ load to compliment my JHP load. And 1350 IS snubby .357 magnum territory.
 
$50 for two boxes
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Holy smokes, BUY ALL OF IT!:)

It's wonderful ammo, and the +P+ is really more of a marketing deal with this particular load. It's only a hair outside of +P. The last time I saw this stuff for sale it was $1/round and it sold out in hours, it is highly desirable ammunition for a large number of people.

Buy all you can, try it out, and if you don't like it, sell it and double what you paid for it.
 
Thanks for the tips guys! I've been thinking about getting rid of this ammo. Since I only have a Stoeger Cougar 8000F, it won't last long with that ammo. In fact, I sent an email to Stoeger about the +P+ rounds, and they told me the gun was NOT designed to be used with +P+ ammunition and they don't recommend I shoot even one cartridge. As you guys have said, European guns should be able to handle the load. Only thing with my gun is that it's European designed, but made in Turkey. If I do get rid of this round, I'll end up going with a standard load JHP of some sort. Then again there's going to be a gun show in town soon and I'm thinking about picking up a Glock 19. I've heard LOTS of good things about those, and apparently the Glocks eat +P+ ammo for breakfast. As ugly as Glocks are, it's nice to know I'd have a gun that can handle anything I put in it. If I do end up getting a 19, I'll probably get as many boxes of the Rangers as I can find.
 
You may already know this, but…Stoeger, as a subsidiary of Beretta, manufactures the Cougar on the original machinery to the original specs. The lower price reflects cost savings achieved by moving production to Turkey, not by degrading materials or workmanship. Whatever performance you would expect from an Italian-made Beretta from Europe, you should expect from a Turkish-made Stoeger from Asia.

However, if they said 'no,' then it's no. They're the ones who will deny a warranty claim, blaming your use of the +P+ ammo. Too bad I'm not in the market, or I would make you an offer.
 
Oh man, my Glock 17 eats L7A1 British submachinegun ammo for breakfast.

125gr FMJ at 1340 fps with Bar Sto conventional rifled barrel. Others tell my Glock barrels make it hit 1400 fps.

Soon I'll chrono it out of my Glock 26, with Glock polygon barrel.
 
the talons were called that for a reason. During expansion, the brass jacket will formulate very sharp hooklike protrusions at the petals. Instead of pushing organs and arteries aside, these little hooks will rip them. Surgeon's nightmare indeed.

That's a theory i heard.
 
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Help?!!

Hey guys, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I too have questions about the Winchester ranger T's. I recently acquired 2 boxes of the RA9TA 9mm 127gr +P+ and have a Taurus PT709 I'm thinking about firing them through. I am a little hesitant though, as I have found one online post of a guy actually cracking the frame on his PT709 after the 7th round. I've contacted Taurus, which says all of their guns are rated for +P, but not +P+. The SAAMI standard for +P is 38500psi, and from my research, including contacting Winchester, the RA9TA comes in around 40k-40.5Kpsi. Winchester says I should be fine, and I believe Taurus probably tests over the +P standard with no issues, but I am not so certain. Also, the owners manual for the pistol recommends a 124gr round at 1250 fps, which matches the RA9TA rounds muzzle velocity. Is it possible to have a higher pressure and the same fps rating? I would think if they're achieving 1250fps with a 124gr round the pressure wouldn't be much different than that of a 127gr round at the same speed. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :D
 
Countryguy, I'd say fire some rounds through to make sure your gun like that round and if so, keep a box as a carry round.
 
I would be hesitant to put the R9TA in the 709. That's a lot of POP for such a light little gun.

Maximum pressure is only one factor that establishes velocity, so it is possible to have two cartridges produce two different max. pressures and yield the same velocity. However, that kind of speed from a 124 gr. projectile out of a pistol would indeed almost certainly require +P+ pressures. Do they identify a specific load in the manual as pushing a 124 gr. bullet to 1250 fps?
 
I have shot a few Federal Hydashoks 9mm +P+ out of my Glock 26. They are only rated about 50 fps faster than the +P rounds of the same weight. The recoil was not much more and you probably wouldn't even notice unless you shot a few standard velocity rounds first.

While I certainly would not shoot a bunch of it, I think it would be a good idea to fire at least a few mags of it to test for function and reliability before carrying it for self defense. If you casing expands and jams your gun in the middle of a gun fight, you will be up the creek without a paddle. If you are concerned about reliability, either stick with +P or move to a more powerfulr cartridge.
 
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