127gr 9mm hollow point...+p+?

phattacorider

New member
What exactly is the +p+? They are Winchester Ranger 9mm Luger 127 grain T-series +P+. The guy at the gun store told me these are the same bullets sold before that were illegal for civilian use (the heads were coated in black) except the heads are copper in color. On the box it says "FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY. NOT FOR RETAIL SALE. PRESSURE LEVELS EXCEED INDUSTRY STANDARDS. USE ONLY IN PISTOLS". I was told the gun store would be recieving a new kind of ammo for law enforcement and these ones gotta go. Can someone help shed some light on the kind of ammo that I spend $50 for two boxes for?
 
Ummmmm, wow! So it looks like I might be digging a grave for my Cougar 8000F if I feed it too many of these rounds. Looks like I'll be getting a hold of Stoger Industries to see if my gun can handle this kind of ammo.
 
That pistol can probably handle it. It should give you the info on the website it it is " rated for +P ." You probably wouldn't be shooting a lot of it, anyway. In most pistols, you can really feel the recoil difference . I have a sub-compact that is not much fun to shoot wth standard loads ,,, NOT fun at all to shoot +P in.
With so many good defensive loads for a 9mm, now,,, in my opinion, you really don't need it.
 
I don't see anything on the website about +p or +p+.

+p+ is a stout load. I'd be certain about the gun being able to handle it before I considered using it. Even if Stoeger said it was OK I'd still not be feeding it a steady diet of the stuff and I'd probably try to install a heavier recoil spring too.

I agree that it is unnecessary. Get yourself some Speer Gold Dot or other trusted, modern ammo and sleep well at night. No beating up the gun and plenty sufficient, so far as handguns are sufficient anyway.

If you want steady +p+ 9mm performance then sell the Cougar and get something in 357sig or 38Super.
 
If you go the +p+ route, get a heavier recoil spring from wolff springs! I have magtech +p+ 115gr's loaded in my S&W 910. I went with an 18lb spring as opposed to the stock 14lb spring since I don't want to batter my aluminum frame to death!
 
The Stoeger Cougar is definitely NOT a gun you want to run +p+ rounds through.

It has a twisting barrel lug lockup setup that is not a type of design you want to stress with a over pressure round.

Honestly,NOBODY should need to use +p+ rounds in any handgun.

+p+ rounds have no established overpressure rating to them and will definitely void any warranty on any handgun they are fired in.

You should simply move up to another larger,more powerful cartridge in another handgun if +p rounds are not enough power for you.

I would pass on those rounds.

Although,I have a P95 Ruger that is a large frame,very strong semi that might safely shoot them.

I think I'd still top out at +p rounds anyway.

It's just safer for you and the long life of your handgun anyway.
 
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The loading I believe you are referring to is the Ranger SXT 127grn +P+. It's actually an excellent load and is my carry round of choice in my CZ-75. If memory serves, Winchester loads these rounds somwhere in the neighborhood of 40,000psi which is 20% over maximum standard pressure and 10% over maximum +P. While Winchester lists the velocity from a 4" barrel at 1250fps, I've seen chronograph tests from a Glock 19 with velocities as high as 1298fps. While I'm not particularly familiar with your Cougar's rotary lockup, most modern short-recoil operated handguns of good quality will not be harmed by limited use of this cartridge (though a steady diet of them will accelerate wear).

The "black bullets" that your dealer was likely referring to are the old Winchester Black Talons. Contrary to what he told you, Black Talons are not nor have they ever been illegal for civilian use or ownership at the federal level and I have two boxes of them in my gun room as we speak (state and local laws may vary). The Black Talon was discontinued by Winchester due to lots of bad publicity from the media. The Talons were claimed to be an "exploding bullet" and a "surgeon's nightmare" and the black Lubalox coating was claimed to be "teflon to make it go through police vests". In actuallity, the Talon was no more deadly than any other premium bullet such as a Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hydra-Shok, or Remington Golden Saber and the Lubalox coating did not make them penetrate body armor, it was applied to aid in feed reliability and reduce barrel fouling. Winchester's current SXT bullet, which is what the Rangers in question are loaded with, is very similar, though not identical, to that used in the Black Talons. The SXT bullets are also While Winchester only markets the Rangers to Law Enforcement, there is no federal law making them illegal for civillian use or ownership (again, state and local laws may vary). They can be somwhat hard to find as Winchester does not make nearly as much of the Ranger ammo as it's other lines and the majority of it is consumed by LE agencies.

With regards to the use of +P+ ammunition, I only reccomend it's use in specific cases. The problem with +P+ is that no such designation is officially recognized by SAAMI and thusly it may be loaded to whatever pressure the manufacturer sees fit. This is particularly problematic in 9mm and .38 Special as there is ammunition out there that would likely wreck a so-chambered gun in very short order. In .38 Special, several makers marketed a +P+ Police only loading that was actually intended for use in .357 Magnum revolvers. The reason for this was that use of magnum ammunition was not politically correct in many places, thusly the cops there used very hot ammo that was still loaded in politically correct .38 Special Cases. Use of this ammo in a dedicated .38 Special revolver, particularly a small gun like a S&W J-Frame or Colt D-Frame, would likely cause accelerated wear and parts breakage in very short order. The issue with 9mm ammo is more in military surplus ammunition. There is milsurp 9mm ammo that is marked as +P+ and loaded to very, very high pressures that is actually intended for use in submachineguns rather than handguns (Hirtenberger 124grn FMJ +P+ is the example that comes most immediately to mind). Use of this ammo in handguns will cause accelerated wear and parts breakage very quickly and I suspect that several Beretta locking blocks have fallen victim to subgun ammo.

The Winchester ammo in question, however, is intended specifically for handguns and I would feel comfortable shooting it in most newer handguns in limited amounts. As I said before, I'm not sure what the strength of the locking system of your Cougar is, but if it is equal to or greater than that of the standard short-recoil system, I would not hesitate to shoot the Rangers in limited amounts.
 
The 9mm +P+ stuff from major manufacturers is only available because police/govt. entities have ordered it for years on contract, with hold harmless type ageements. Within my experience, police/govt. organizations do not tend to order ammunition that is likely to damage or cause significant premature wear to the firearms in use.

Over a period of years, I have used a fair amount of +P+ ammunition, to include the Winchester 127 +P+ you mentioned. I have used even more 9mm NATO and +P. For a few years, I shot 9mm in matches and used my own reloads, loaded to velocities that would be comparable to todays +P and +P+, to better knock over the steel plates. I have no experience with the pistol you mention, but have used the +P+,NATO,my reloads,etc. in HK, Browning/FN, S&W, Ruger, Colt, Kimber and Glock. This ammunition is definitely more energetic and does produce high velocities, but I've been unable to detect any damage or premature wear in using the +P+ or NATO ammunition. I don't mean to imply that higher-pressure type ammunition is all I use. I use my share of Wichester white box, etc when it's available. Common sense tells me that constant, long-term use of +P+ has to increase wear, but I have been unable to detect it in any of my guns. ymmv
 
I carry a Beretta Cougar on duty loaded with Federal 9BPLE +P+, never had a bit of trouble with it. I use standard pressure ammo for training/practice. The Cougar came in .40S&W, 357Sig, and .45ACP, it'll handle +P+ 9mm without any difficulty. In fact any quality, modern 9mm pistol should handle those rounds just find as carry ammo, use the cheap stuff at the range. There's no reason to beat up any gun of any caliber by using high pressure ammo all the time.
 
I have a bunch of the Winchester Ranger 127+p+ and have used it in carry 9mms for a number of years--most recently my Kahr PM9. I did not put thousands of rounds of the stuff through it, but about 100 at first, then a mag every month or two to keep fresh ammo in the pistol.

I moved to year-round .45 acp carry a bit over a year now, but the PM9 is loaded and in the safe, standing at the ready, should I ever need it.
 
Wow! I must say I have gained quite a bit of knowledge about this! Thanks everyone!!

The reason I purchased this ammo is because it was the least costly hollow point 9mm ammo they had at the moment, and I was told it's the same ammo used by several law enforcement agencies. If cops use this stuff, I should be in good decision making to use it as well.

This will not be an all around choice of ammo, it will be strictly defense. When at the range, I have tons of Winchester, Federal, and American Eagle FMJ that I'll end up using. I am certain of one thing though. I only own one handgun. In the state of Nevada, you can ONLY use HP for SD. If in the event I come face to face with a deadly situation where I have to defend myself with deadly force, then I will do what I can to try and survive, even if that includes the possibility (even however so slightly) of some malfunction towards my gun.
 
9mm, the poor underrated cartridge......

The fact is that for generations, US made 9mm Luger (Parabellum) ammo was underpowered, compared to Eurpoean 9mm. The US SAAMI standard is way below what European nations load. 9mm NATO loads are +p+ by US standards.

I have a personal problem with any +P+ load, for a couple of reasons. First is the SAAMI standard used to determine what is +P, and second, is the whole concept of using "overpressure" loads. As a handloader for decades, I have made my share of hot loads. Some definately above +p levels. But for use as duty ammo, I have always felt that if you cannot get the performance you desire/need with standard pressure ammo, you are not using the right cartridge.

There isn't any gun out there (modern, in good working order) that won't handle +P+ loads, as they are all proof tested with even higher pressure ammo. However, only some guns will handle a steady diet of +p or +p+. One cylinder/magazine load of +P+ might be too much for some guns. But they will shoot it, once. That never seemed to me to be a good idea for a duty combination.

What good is shooting a high pressure load (for the performance) if your gun breaks on the 3rd, or 15th (or 125th) round? Pushing the envelope for performance, at the cost of service life never seemed to be a good trade off to me, because there is just no way to know if/when your gun will fail from the increased stress. You might test your gun and have it work fine, and the very next time you shoot it, it could break. Chances are it won't, but if you are counting on that gun to save your life (or someone else's) why risk it?
 
but if you are counting on that gun to save your life (or someone else's) why risk it?

You are abolutely correct. I honestly didn't buy the ammo for it's performance. When I purchased it, it was the best value ammo they had. $25 for 50 cartridges? Or $20 for 25? ATM, I'm unemployed and still collecting (darn construction business) and spent the last bit of my free money not tied to any other financial obligation on that ammo and won't have anything outside of money for groceries and food for a week. Anywho, the thought of "overpressure" really didn't hit me about my gun when he mentioned it. My only problem right now is it's the only ammo I have, and I only have one gun. If it's all I have for the moment, then it's what I will be forced to use in the event I have to fight for my life until I can get some $$$ for different rounds then find a way to get rid of these +P+'s. It's just weird how some of you guys are not fond of them (for great reason) but some of you other guys think highly of them (from experience). I know I don't want a costly experience just to see how my Cougar 9mm will handle these rounds, but again when my life hangs on my gun and my round (which I hope it will never come to that in my life), it will have to do.
 
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The 127gr +p+ Winchester is THE ammo I use in my Glocks.

I like reading that! I've never been a fan of Glocks mainly because I think theyare super ugly, but I have only heard great things about them. I have been checking out the Glock 19 for some time mainly because it's just as big as my Cougar and it seems to feel pretty good in my hand. If it's unquestionable the Glock's ability to handle +P+ ammo, thenit might have to be my next weapon.
 
I had a Glock 19 until I gave it to my father for home defense use. A very fine pistol and I shot more accurately with it, than the S&W 3913. While I had it, I shot various boxes of ammunition including Buffalo Bore (+P+) 124 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,300 fps/M.E. 461 ft. lbs.) and (+P+) 147 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,175 fps/M.E. 451 ft. lbs.). These shot without any problems in the Glock 19. These were shot simply to test them with the Glock for Personal Defense purposes, as I also did with Golden Sabres. For regular range practice, I shot Winchester White Box.

If you are concerned about the Couger, save the ammo for when you get that Glock 19.
 
I've never used it, but it looks like good stuff to me. Ranger-T ammo is very good in general. Below is a link to an article by our fellow forum member Stephen A. Camp.

9mm Hi Power and Winchester 127-grain +P+ JHP

image002.jpg


Looks like it gets wicked expansion too me. Of course so do all the Ranger-T line projectiles.:)
 
If you paid $50 for TWO boxes of Winchester Ranger 127 gr. 9mm +P+ (RA9TA) that was a spectacular deal! The performance of that round is not unlike some of the anemic .357 magnum loadings from major ammo companies. It is widely considered among the top 5 defensive loadings for the 9mm caliber.

Most 9mm pistols will handle that load okay, but steady use will accelerate wear. And, no your Cougar isn't gonna blow up. While it's +p+, its way below proof pressure of any mainstream 9mm handgun.

Winchester rates this load at 1250 fps and 441 ft/lbs muzzle energy. Their ballistic testing demonstrated just above 12" penetration in different media including bare gel and with 4 layer denim, heavy cloth and wallboard placed in front of gel. Expansion was a consistent .64" to .68".
 
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