Read thru this, I don't use lead bullets so maybe I'm way off but I don't think so. You need to speed them up, a bunch I suspect. You don't mentioned that you have tried that yet. Check some manuals and try some medium to medium high loads. With FMJ, 4.5 of Bullseye feels a little weak, 5.0 feels better and shoots better. Give it a try.
125 LRN 9mm bullseye tumble
- Thread starter goochster
- Start date
I was worried about speeding up the load because it seems to recoil more with the bullseye than the factory loads(115 grn) But I'll search for some loads for bullseye and the 125LRN. I loaded some xpt(90grn)4.2grns bullseye and will try those tomorrow. I only crimp using the 4th die and very lightly.
Factory rounds have no problem going through and being stable. I really think it is spin(speed) and I think the jacketed bullts will give me a good indication.
as far as lube the bullet has that waxy ring so I wasn't lubing the inside of the case neck???? should I be?
Factory rounds have no problem going through and being stable. I really think it is spin(speed) and I think the jacketed bullts will give me a good indication.
as far as lube the bullet has that waxy ring so I wasn't lubing the inside of the case neck???? should I be?
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the lube looks fine on those bullets, at least from the pic. if it isn't leaving streaks of lead in your barrel, it's no concern. those 90gr XTP are some insane accurate bullets, actually my fav, but I load them to +p speeds with hs6 or titegroup. they are accurate at high speed. but at least you have a known accurate different bullet now, so shoot those XTP's and if they shoot straight, we can deduct a gun issue and go back to working on the load.
Let's cover it all in one place, so folks can argue from here:
1) Almost all keyholing/tumbling is caused by undersized bullets. Some is caused by worn rifling, so much lead build-up that the bullets can't engage the rifling, or a damaged muzzle that throws the bullet off exiting the barrel.
2) Most keyholing/tumbling is with plated bullets.
3) There is no fixed rule about how much over groove diameter a lead bullet should be to shoot lead free. Some can do well with lead bullets that are the same as groove diameter. Most do well with bullet that are 0.001" over groove diameter. Most would do VERY well with bullets that are 0.002" over groove diameter. Some actually need to go 0.003" over groove diameter.
4) Everyone seems convinced nowadays that a lead bullet must be sized. I found back in the '70s that as-cast, unsized bullets shoot as well or better than sized. Everyone should at least try as-cast bullets once before ever sizing a bullet.
5) Case expansion is very important for lead bullets. After expansion, the case ID should be 0.001-0.002" smaller than bullet diameter. If it is smaller, there is a very good chance that the lead bullet will be swaged down in diameter during seating or that the bullet will be forced off center and put a bulge in the case where the case walls are thinnest. The latter is generally "solved" by getting a Lee FCD and not discovering exactly what the reloader is doing wrong.
6) The expander that comes with a die set is NOT the correct size for lead bullets. Many of us find that they work OK, but too many ignore them completely or actually remove the expander entirely and get a "powder through case mouth flare" tool that doesn't expand the case at all. This is fine for jacketed bullets, but not at all good for lead bullets.
7) One should always pull at least one bullet after seating and crimping (no matter what type of bullet) and inspect for seating/crimp damage and change in bullet OD.
1) Almost all keyholing/tumbling is caused by undersized bullets. Some is caused by worn rifling, so much lead build-up that the bullets can't engage the rifling, or a damaged muzzle that throws the bullet off exiting the barrel.
2) Most keyholing/tumbling is with plated bullets.
3) There is no fixed rule about how much over groove diameter a lead bullet should be to shoot lead free. Some can do well with lead bullets that are the same as groove diameter. Most do well with bullet that are 0.001" over groove diameter. Most would do VERY well with bullets that are 0.002" over groove diameter. Some actually need to go 0.003" over groove diameter.
4) Everyone seems convinced nowadays that a lead bullet must be sized. I found back in the '70s that as-cast, unsized bullets shoot as well or better than sized. Everyone should at least try as-cast bullets once before ever sizing a bullet.
5) Case expansion is very important for lead bullets. After expansion, the case ID should be 0.001-0.002" smaller than bullet diameter. If it is smaller, there is a very good chance that the lead bullet will be swaged down in diameter during seating or that the bullet will be forced off center and put a bulge in the case where the case walls are thinnest. The latter is generally "solved" by getting a Lee FCD and not discovering exactly what the reloader is doing wrong.
6) The expander that comes with a die set is NOT the correct size for lead bullets. Many of us find that they work OK, but too many ignore them completely or actually remove the expander entirely and get a "powder through case mouth flare" tool that doesn't expand the case at all. This is fine for jacketed bullets, but not at all good for lead bullets.
7) One should always pull at least one bullet after seating and crimping (no matter what type of bullet) and inspect for seating/crimp damage and change in bullet OD.
The only other think I can think of (other then a loading/powder issue) is your throat is tighter then the rest of your barrel.
Example: I once had a dan wesson 1911 in .45 acp. It shot jacketed bullets great, in fact I would hit clay birds with it at 100 yards all the time. After a price hike it became to expensive to feed it jacketed bullets so I switched to cast. Couldn't get it to shoot lead at all. I slugged the barrel and it was .451 my bullets were .452 should work.
I then got the idea to just slug the last 4 inches or so and what I found was that the majority of the barrel was actually. 454. There was nothing I could do at that point other then get another barrel so I sold it.
Your barrel/bullet numbers should be right so I'd just try speeding up the bullet and see where it goes. Another option is to get a bit slower powder (unique/universal range) and try to "push" the bullet into the lands rather then "ram" it into them. I have seen bullets skid down the bore because of this. (It was a 357 mag with 10 bhn bullets though)
hope this helps.Best of luck with you load.
Example: I once had a dan wesson 1911 in .45 acp. It shot jacketed bullets great, in fact I would hit clay birds with it at 100 yards all the time. After a price hike it became to expensive to feed it jacketed bullets so I switched to cast. Couldn't get it to shoot lead at all. I slugged the barrel and it was .451 my bullets were .452 should work.
I then got the idea to just slug the last 4 inches or so and what I found was that the majority of the barrel was actually. 454. There was nothing I could do at that point other then get another barrel so I sold it.Your barrel/bullet numbers should be right so I'd just try speeding up the bullet and see where it goes. Another option is to get a bit slower powder (unique/universal range) and try to "push" the bullet into the lands rather then "ram" it into them. I have seen bullets skid down the bore because of this. (It was a 357 mag with 10 bhn bullets though)
hope this helps.Best of luck with you load.
skizzumns right on xpt
well I loaded 5 rounds 90gr xpt with 4.2gr bullseye and then 5 rounds with 4.5 gr bullesye. The 4.5 was all the red area grouping. The wood underneath didn't show any sign of tumble with either load so hopefully this will point us in the right direction with the 125grn LRN. I'm now thinking it is load but I cannot find any bullseye loads for the cast bullet.
on the 90gr xpt the 4.2gr would be around 950fps where the 4.5gr would be close to 1100fps.
well I loaded 5 rounds 90gr xpt with 4.2gr bullseye and then 5 rounds with 4.5 gr bullesye. The 4.5 was all the red area grouping. The wood underneath didn't show any sign of tumble with either load so hopefully this will point us in the right direction with the 125grn LRN. I'm now thinking it is load but I cannot find any bullseye loads for the cast bullet.
on the 90gr xpt the 4.2gr would be around 950fps where the 4.5gr would be close to 1100fps.
good!! looks like we take a gun malfunction off the table.
your hi-point is plus p rated, so don't get too worried about getting to the max 9mm luger data. i'd like you to get up past 4gr of bullseye and your still tumbling, then we know there is something about your process that is jacking the lead up or there is an inherent problem with those bullets themselves.
good luck
your hi-point is plus p rated, so don't get too worried about getting to the max 9mm luger data. i'd like you to get up past 4gr of bullseye and your still tumbling, then we know there is something about your process that is jacking the lead up or there is an inherent problem with those bullets themselves.
good luck
thanks, I'll work on it tomorrow,, but thanks for the xpt.. I really like those and heck they were only 2.00 more than the lead 125's I bought.
Use to live in Georgia many years ago(37) got married on top of amacola falls in Dawsonville Georgia; Funny thing is the JP that married us is now the current mayor of a booming town
Use to live in Georgia many years ago(37) got married on top of amacola falls in Dawsonville Georgia; Funny thing is the JP that married us is now the current mayor of a booming town
I can only guess that maybe your high point has a slower twist than most 9mm's? maybe someone can confirm or bust that guess, but I see lots of people stand by a 3.6gr-4.0gr of bullseye with a 125gr in most 9mm pistols. thetruthaboutguns had an article relating to the hi-point .45 having issues running 230gr bullets as well, so could be a twist rate or that hi-point has only 3 lands compared to most guns 4-5. when you buy your next box of lead bullets, try some 115gr and see if those don't end up being more accurate. and not that hi-point aren't fine for protecting your home, it's not something I take too seriously accuracy-wise outside of keeping in the COM. no hate, I have a HP carbine and had a pistol, never a problem from either, but it seems like your taking your shooting interest seriously, so you would probably benefit from an upgrade.
good luck pursuing your new hobby in re-loading. this is where I ironed out my issues as well, great advice on this forum, well.....in the reloading part anyways
p.s. if you wanna save yourself some bucks and maybe some future headaches, try out extreme bullets, they run really nice without the smoke and leading and wont get shaved in the crimp, although overcrimping will still distort. http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-115-RN-p/xc9mm-115rn-b0500.htm
good luck pursuing your new hobby in re-loading. this is where I ironed out my issues as well, great advice on this forum, well.....in the reloading part anyways
p.s. if you wanna save yourself some bucks and maybe some future headaches, try out extreme bullets, they run really nice without the smoke and leading and wont get shaved in the crimp, although overcrimping will still distort. http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-115-RN-p/xc9mm-115rn-b0500.htm
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WVMountaineer
New member
goochster, Mr. skizzum just would't give up on you. I'm sure you are indebted. Good on you skizzum.
BTW, extreme makes some great bullets. I like them. However, don't over look the powder coated lead stuff from some manufacture's. It shoots clean. And, for the 9mm, is much cheaper than the extreme bullets. Which is saying a lot, as they are very affordable.
God Bless
BTW, extreme makes some great bullets. I like them. However, don't over look the powder coated lead stuff from some manufacture's. It shoots clean. And, for the 9mm, is much cheaper than the extreme bullets. Which is saying a lot, as they are very affordable.
God Bless
Normal for shooting lead bullets is no leading at all. Not busting on you, but if a new lead shooter happens upon this thread, I just want them to know. If you have any leading there is still an issue, and my bet is there is still a fitment issue.
If there is noticeable leading after only 5 rounds, what would it be like after say 50 or 100 rounds?
If there is noticeable leading after only 5 rounds, what would it be like after say 50 or 100 rounds?
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AFK, maybe I don't understand leading?? I would think that when you shoot lead, some of it has to be left in the barrel as the bullet spins through?? Of course that could just be gunpowder and not actual lead. If you are talking about looking into the barrel, gun unloaded, and seeing some strips of lead I guess that would be leading.. that I don't have.
, and seeing some strips of lead I guess that would be leading.. that I don't have.generally, if you have a bullet fit issue, you'll see some leading in the first inch or two of the barrel. just looks like a rough area compared to the rest, or your grooves will be filled. you'll see where it starts and where the normal texture of your barrel begins. f you have a poor lubing issue, you'll see the same, but usually in the last couple inches of the barrel, where the lube starts to run out.
ill put a pic of some leading for you to see. i have a revolver with a very rough barrel and it always has some kind of leading in it.
as to running such a high load of bullseye, you won't likely have that problem if next time you find a faster powder that's more appropriate for the 9mm, like titegroup or HP38. but the thing about this that is still odd, is that you got the 90gr XTP to fly straight with about the same about of powder. so who really knows, but it works for now and i don't think you'll be buying those bullets again anyways, so use them up with what works and i won't lose any sleep over it.
ill put a pic of some leading for you to see. i have a revolver with a very rough barrel and it always has some kind of leading in it.
as to running such a high load of bullseye, you won't likely have that problem if next time you find a faster powder that's more appropriate for the 9mm, like titegroup or HP38. but the thing about this that is still odd, is that you got the 90gr XTP to fly straight with about the same about of powder. so who really knows, but it works for now and i don't think you'll be buying those bullets again anyways, so use them up with what works and i won't lose any sleep over it.
Just a tip you may/ may not need, one of my pistols shoots MUCH better with 125 grn lead round nose that does not have a stepped shoulder, just the shape of an upside down U (with a groove for lube). I barely put any crimp on it, just enough to get rid of the belling. I think it's more bearing surface as the bullet travels down the barrel.