125 LRN 9mm bullseye tumble

G

goochster

New member
I have been having a real headache trying to get those cast 125grn rn bullets to not tumble. I have been making up rounds at various bullseye grains.. 3.7, 3.8 and 3.9 My OAL is 1.115 and shooting into 3/4 plywood you can actually take a bare bucket and set it right into hole... for close combat I bet that would rally do some damage:-) BUT I really would like them to fly straight. At 3.9 grns the group is tighter but they are still sideways. I;m using a lee 4 die set and have eliminated the crimp during bullet seating and let the 4th die do the crimping (very light)
I'm shooting a high point c9 with a 3.5inch barrel. Factory loads I can shoot in the black with tight groups all day and nice round holes.
Any help would be appreciated.. also the lead bullet says it is .358 but my digital calipers say they are only .354, my barrel is .356.
Thanks in advance.
:confused:
 
If your bullet is measuring .354, I think you found your problem. You can try to increase your load a little, but if your bullets re undersized, I would attempt to return them
 
FWIW I'd agree skizzums, the undersized bullets might not be getting the spin they need to fly straight. Good on you for providing the measurements on your barrel and the bullets.

Also FWIW - I shot some undersized cast bullets and got a lot of smoke and a fair bit of leading from them. I blamed the powder I was using at the time but after being on this forum for a while I suspect the bullets were undersized and the powder was just fine.
 
You need to slug the barrel of the gun. Measure the slug with a micrometer. Add .002 to that measuremt and you have a decent starting point for the proper bullet diameter for your gun. There are many variables in getting cast loads to shoot both well and clean at the same time. Also, once you get bullets of the right size, make sure they are not being resized during the seating process. Best way is to pull one after seating and measure it to see if the size has changed. The Lyman M-die is your friend here.

My 9mm's like bullets that are .3585, I think you are way undersized.
 
thanks I dble checked and the sizes I posted were correct.. I'll try jacketed as verses cast and see if that helps, as I said factory fly true.

Phil
 
Barrel slugging 101

Buy a pack of lead egg sinkers thats just larger then the barrel. clean and oil barrel well. Use a brass dial rod and drive the sinker through the barrel. Using a mic (calipers are not accurate enough) measure the high points and you've got you groove diameter.
 
I think your right to try some jacketed bullets first and see if the problem stops, then you can know for sure that your bullets were the issue.

Good luck
 
ok, I slugged my barrel and it is between .354 and 355 but I pulled a bullet and it is 353.. I think my sizer is making it too small so I probably need less crimp. Also I haven't been able to find a good bullseye load for 125LRN either. Also thanks all for the info I not only learned about slugging the barrel but I also learned how to put the gun back together after all the small parts fell out! Took 20minutes to slug and 2 hours to get the gun back to right :D
 
do you have any bullets that haven't been loaded and crimped? can I ask who you bought these bullets from? your barrel is right where it should be size-wise, just wanna figure out if this is your fault or a bullet issue so we can correct it moving forward. any way you can give a pic of your loaded bullet?
 
I'll do it first thing in the am tomorrow... have the flu bad so going to make a hot toddie and go to bed. I bought the bullets from ace hardware in our town that has quite the selection of reload equip.. just can't get powder. took 6months to get that pound of bullseye! The bullet manufacturer is ACME and they say 125gr LRN 9mm sized to .358 (wishfull thinking on their part).
Heck I'll take the picture now before the drink kicks in.!
bullet1.jpg

bullet2.jpg


hope that helps
 
I don't know about others, but I always seat above the edge before the round nose taper. you are def reducing the size of your bullet by tapering it on the base where it rides the bore. seat it a hair deeper until the start of the nose, above the driving part of the bullet, is under the case mouth. I have't used ACME bullets, but lots hear do and I haven't heard ony problems with them. I think you have caused this problem most likely. how many of these did you load?

p.s. I am feeling a little generous, and I don't want your first reloading experience to be a negative. if you have 500 rounds or less that are already loaded and possibly damaged, and you wanna pay the 6$ flat rate to pull them and ship the bullets to me, I will send you back some .356 sized bullets that have an actually crimp groove and are powder coated. I hate that your first experience loading has been a bad one, and it wont be any trouble for me to just melt those bullets back down and recast them.
 
Last edited:
thanks for the offer but I first want to try to get this right. I decided to check each step of my assembly to find out where I am screwing up. I'll start by flaring the end deeper for I noticed that when I seat a bullet it did shave some lead. Then I will take your advice and sink them just past the ridge and make sure that the only crimp comes off die 4. I only load 4 at a time then test them on the range, it's only a few miles down the road. Any suggestion on bullseye charge?? My last test was at 3.9 grains.
Thanks
Phil
 
I am a little unclear on whether the bullets measure .354 before or after loading them. It's hard to tell but from the picture, it looks almost roll crimped, with a visual taper to the crimp. You might be crimping your bullets smaller. Should be only enough crimp to remove the belling of the case mouth and no more.

I shoot tons of cast in pistols, and have never slugged a barrel, and personally wouldn't bother unless I was having trouble with standard sized bullets for a caliber. .354 cast is undersize for any 9mm.

Also, if the box is labeled .358, and the bullets inside are .354, they are lawfully required to take them back. A "no returns" policy does not a apply to merchandise that is mislabeled, misrepresented, or defective as new.
 
Last edited:
here's the problem.. MEEEE!
Thanks riveratt for the micrometer suggestion went out and bought one.
Here is what I have.
barrel .3545
bullets were actually .356 (don't know why the box is marked 358 unless there stamp is dirty)
pulling a bullet after reloading it sized to .353 (if it wasn't in brass it would have fell through the barrel)
My problem....
I wasn't expanding the brass enough to except the bullet and it was being shaved, undersizing the lead bullet.
This was a great learning experience for me and I thank all of you for all of your help and ALSO would like to than hi-point arms for providing a weapon that was pretty darn accurate with tumbling bullets ;-)
Now when I pull the bullet after loading it measures .356
 
Last edited:
Very Disappointing

Well thinking I solved the problem for the bullet tumbler I was very surprised to still see the same tumble. see below photo. The nice round holes are factory jacket ammo the ones shaped like bullets are those 125gr LRN bullets loaded to 3.9gr bulleseye
I am totally lost?????:confused:
bad.jpg


HELP!!!
 
.358" is the wrong diameter. Those are .38/.357 bullets. 9mm are supposed to be .355" or .356". One or 2 thou under shouldn't cause tumbling. They will expand a tick for that. They lubed correctly?
Tumbling is caused by undersized bullets, oversized barrel and sometimes to low velocity.
3.9 of Bullseye is the starting load for a jacketed or cast 125 and a 4" barrel.
I suspect it's about the lower velocity produced by the 3.5" barrel.
A slugged barrel will not have 2 diameters.
 
.358" is the wrong diameter
Click to expand...

Not necessarily so. My 9mm's shoot .3585 very accurately.

9mm are supposed to be .355" or .356". One or 2 thou under shouldn't cause tumbling.
Click to expand...

There is no exact science here. The gun will tell you what it wants/likes through experimentation. In my experience cast .355 will easily tumble no matter what the charge or barrel length is. 1 or 2 thou under certainly can cause tumbling.

They will expand a tick for that.
Click to expand...

It is possible for this to happen but commercial cast bullets are usually on the harder side. Usually harder then they have to be for shipping purposes. If the were softer they would get deformed in the mail. I use a BHN of 12 in my 9's and they work fine sized to .3585 and tumble lubed. If the OP was casting his own, he could adjust the BHN, but he's not, so he can't.

A slugged barrel will not have 2 diameters.
Click to expand...

Yes it can. Mt 9's differ by .0005. Mass produced pistols can have variances in the barrel diameter. a difference of .001 is not unheard of and will have little to no affect on a jacketed bullet. Cast is a whole different beast.

When it comes to cast, fit is king. Charge and lube come in to play, but that usually, not always, pertains to leading issues. When a bullet tumbles, it is usually caused by it not fitting in the barrel correctly.

I suggest going to castboolits.com and read about casting for the 9mm. I know you are not casting your own, but there is much to learn about shooting cast in a 9mm with success.

I would start with loading .357 cast bullets making sure not to resize them during seating and/or crimping. Again, the Lyman M die is your friend here. I had to go so far as to use the M die for 9mm with a .38 expander plug to get it to work without resizing the bullet. If you still get tumbling, bad leading, or both, try .358. It took me a while to dial in my 9mm's. Sometimes you have immediate success with cast and sometimes you have to work at it. If you understand the fundamentals, it will make things easier.
 
Wether the box is mark right or wrong is irrelevant at this point. You said they measure .356 as it should for 99% of cast 9mm boolits. That is obviously not the reason you are tumbling. You need to do a proper work up because obviously your load is too slow. Make up 10 rounds of each, from the starting load to the max load, working up in .2 increments. You'll get to a stable and accurate load. Your not going to run into much high pressure problems with bullseye. I also recommend finding a more appropriate powder when you are able, but nonetheless, you can make a stable load with what you have. Starting loads almost always suck, you'll usually find you sweet spot between the top 75% to the max of your load data.

Only other thing could be your gun. Try some factory loads and double check that its stable. If not, you could have a seriously fouled barrel or a dinged up crown.....but I am 99% sure your just going too slow with an unknow barrel twist. Time to heat it up. Could you get better accuracy with 357 or 358 boolits? Maybe, but you gave us your barrel slug, and it will at least grab the rifling on those factory cast boolits.

P.s....are you crimping on the seating die? Or using a 4th crimp die?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top