12 vs. 20
- Thread starter MINSH101
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In typical guns, with loads suitable for SD the 20 gauge will have MORE recoil. If the guns weigh the same 20's will have slightly less recoil, but if you compare comparable guns 20's tend to weigh about 1 lb less.
You buy a 20 ga to have a lighter gun that is easier to carry around in the field. A 12 will be heavier and recoil will vary depending on the load. There are many more options for 12 ga ammo. You can buy 12 ga ammo loaded to equal 20 ga specs and from the heavier gun have less recoil.
An awful lot of recoil is between the ears though. Your wife has probably made up her mind that a 20 will recoil less. Even though it actually has more recoil than a 12 I wouldn't be surprised if she shot them side by side if she would tell you the 20 has less recoil. The mind just works that way.
You buy a 20 ga to have a lighter gun that is easier to carry around in the field. A 12 will be heavier and recoil will vary depending on the load. There are many more options for 12 ga ammo. You can buy 12 ga ammo loaded to equal 20 ga specs and from the heavier gun have less recoil.
An awful lot of recoil is between the ears though. Your wife has probably made up her mind that a 20 will recoil less. Even though it actually has more recoil than a 12 I wouldn't be surprised if she shot them side by side if she would tell you the 20 has less recoil. The mind just works that way.
It's hard to say really. Has she shot a 12 or a 20? If not the best solution is to have her try them.
I have an 20 gage 870 youth express that I prefer over the 12 gage 870 simply because of the weight. With a slip on limbsaver recoil pad it's a soft shooter too. Without it... Not so much. Finding anything but slugs for HD in 20 has been an ongoing issue as I would prefer buckshot.
No idea of your budget but if we can go up to ~600 I think mossberg and Weatherby are making youth model SA in 20 that might work for the intended purpose. That Weatherby SA 08 is the lightest, softest recoiling 20 I have ever tried. Same could probably be said for the 12 gage version.
I have an 20 gage 870 youth express that I prefer over the 12 gage 870 simply because of the weight. With a slip on limbsaver recoil pad it's a soft shooter too. Without it... Not so much. Finding anything but slugs for HD in 20 has been an ongoing issue as I would prefer buckshot.
No idea of your budget but if we can go up to ~600 I think mossberg and Weatherby are making youth model SA in 20 that might work for the intended purpose. That Weatherby SA 08 is the lightest, softest recoiling 20 I have ever tried. Same could probably be said for the 12 gage version.
DAVID NANCARROW
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Bought the better half a 20 gauge youth model 870 SPS and she is quite happy with it. It came with a laminated wood stock which looks pretty nice, and I suspect adds weight as compared with the synthetic stock. She's kinda short and I figured the youth model would fit her well, which it does. I'm a 6 footer and to tell you the truth, I really like shooting it too. Swings nice, lighter than my 870 12 gauge, easy to operate.
NoSecondBest
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If it's for home defense as stated, you won't even notice any recoil.
Blindstitch
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It really depends what your wife look like. If she's built like a super model vs. a linebacker. It seems to me most kids switch over from 20-12 at say 14 years old. Yeah it may have hurt for a while but in the heat of the moment shoulder pain isn't a concern.
Depending on your thinking you could always buy two guns. The Mossberg 88 costs about $200 vs more heavy duty stuff that could cost as much as you're willing to throw at it.
Depending on your thinking you could always buy two guns. The Mossberg 88 costs about $200 vs more heavy duty stuff that could cost as much as you're willing to throw at it.
A Winchester 1300 in 12 gauge with Aguila Minishells?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...on-12-gauge-1-3-4-4-and-1-buckshot-11-pellets
-Sr
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...on-12-gauge-1-3-4-4-and-1-buckshot-11-pellets
-Sr
"...you won't even notice any recoil..." Except for the part where she must practice with the thing.
Recoil can be reduced by several methods, including the use of a semi-auto, but if the Mrs.(don't tell here where that abbreviation comes from. snicker.) is afraid to shoot the thing or just doesn't like shooting it, she won't practice with it. Be better off with a big dog and a stick.
Recoil can be reduced by several methods, including the use of a semi-auto, but if the Mrs.(don't tell here where that abbreviation comes from. snicker.) is afraid to shoot the thing or just doesn't like shooting it, she won't practice with it. Be better off with a big dog and a stick.
Gunplummer
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The difference I notice with recoil is in the TYPE of shotgun. I would say that the single shots can be brutal sometimes.
Here we go again....
Not true. That only happens when reduced recoil 12 is compared to full house 20. I've run the numbers using same brand guns in 12 vs. 20 and same brand ammo. By the numbers, the 20 kicks less. I also have a Mossy 500 8 rnd w/ cut stock and a Mossy 20 Youth. Side by side like ammo for like ammo felt recoil in the 20 is less. Same testing done side by side with my Fabarms Silver Lion Cubs..12 & 20. The 20 has less felt recoil.. noticeably less. Both 20's are built on 20 gauge frames.
Now to the variables. The wifes size, build, and strength.
FIT: FIRST and FOREMOST the gun has to fit properly. Simply cutting down the stock of a 12 does nothing for the circumference of the grip and the trigger reach. A poor fitting gun kicks harder than a proper fitting gun. Also, the reach to the forend is another issue. More 20's can be found in youth modles than 12's. Youth models usually have stocks that are more properly fitted to a smaller shooter both at the stock and the forend. These go to size and build.
Strength: WHAT if the intruder "Surrenders" and you have a no shoot situation. How long will she have to hold the gun up while waiting for 911 to arrive? Yeah.. that extra pound adds up PDQ in this situation. OH.. and back to that fit part. Bad fit makes holding it up for an extended period just that much harder.
Ammo choices: 12 wins hands down here. That said...the 20 will do the job just fine.
Just my $.02 a a shorter shooter who has a couple sets of matching guns in both 12 & 20.
Edit to add: Let her pick the gun that fits her and get it for her... then get your own. If only one gun for now.. her's first. THEN you have a good reason to get what you want later.
Not true. That only happens when reduced recoil 12 is compared to full house 20. I've run the numbers using same brand guns in 12 vs. 20 and same brand ammo. By the numbers, the 20 kicks less. I also have a Mossy 500 8 rnd w/ cut stock and a Mossy 20 Youth. Side by side like ammo for like ammo felt recoil in the 20 is less. Same testing done side by side with my Fabarms Silver Lion Cubs..12 & 20. The 20 has less felt recoil.. noticeably less. Both 20's are built on 20 gauge frames.
Now to the variables. The wifes size, build, and strength.
FIT: FIRST and FOREMOST the gun has to fit properly. Simply cutting down the stock of a 12 does nothing for the circumference of the grip and the trigger reach. A poor fitting gun kicks harder than a proper fitting gun. Also, the reach to the forend is another issue. More 20's can be found in youth modles than 12's. Youth models usually have stocks that are more properly fitted to a smaller shooter both at the stock and the forend. These go to size and build.
Strength: WHAT if the intruder "Surrenders" and you have a no shoot situation. How long will she have to hold the gun up while waiting for 911 to arrive? Yeah.. that extra pound adds up PDQ in this situation. OH.. and back to that fit part. Bad fit makes holding it up for an extended period just that much harder.
Ammo choices: 12 wins hands down here. That said...the 20 will do the job just fine.
Just my $.02 a a shorter shooter who has a couple sets of matching guns in both 12 & 20.
Edit to add: Let her pick the gun that fits her and get it for her... then get your own. If only one gun for now.. her's first. THEN you have a good reason to get what you want later.
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bamaranger
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shotguns
I worked a detail once upon a time, where every body in the agency had to qualify w/ 3 weapons; revolver (that dates it) shotgun and carbine (initially M1, then the M4 the second time I went back). Everybody shot, cooks, dentist, baker, clerks....all, not just the correction officers.
The 12 ga shotgun was a problem for many females. More than one left the line with tears, and more than laid the weapon down and walked off the line.
We could teach nearly everybody to qual with the revolver.
What EVERYBODY shot well were the carbines. Depending on the stature (and tempermant) of your wife, any shotgun may be a handfull. And if she needs a weapon to protect herself, she will need it badly, and will need all the confidence and ability she possibly can.
I would respectfully mention if the above is the case, that you might consider a carbine of some variety, and it need not be some uber tactical number. If your wife can manage the hammer and grasp the concepts of rendering a cocked levergun safe with a chambered round, one of the pistol caliber levers might be an alternative. There are also box mag fed pistol caliber carbines, the old Ruger PC9 and the Marlins come to mind, and there are others, Kel Tec, HiPoint, likely more.
I worked a detail once upon a time, where every body in the agency had to qualify w/ 3 weapons; revolver (that dates it) shotgun and carbine (initially M1, then the M4 the second time I went back). Everybody shot, cooks, dentist, baker, clerks....all, not just the correction officers.
The 12 ga shotgun was a problem for many females. More than one left the line with tears, and more than laid the weapon down and walked off the line.
We could teach nearly everybody to qual with the revolver.
What EVERYBODY shot well were the carbines. Depending on the stature (and tempermant) of your wife, any shotgun may be a handfull. And if she needs a weapon to protect herself, she will need it badly, and will need all the confidence and ability she possibly can.
I would respectfully mention if the above is the case, that you might consider a carbine of some variety, and it need not be some uber tactical number. If your wife can manage the hammer and grasp the concepts of rendering a cocked levergun safe with a chambered round, one of the pistol caliber levers might be an alternative. There are also box mag fed pistol caliber carbines, the old Ruger PC9 and the Marlins come to mind, and there are others, Kel Tec, HiPoint, likely more.
A 20 gauge potentially recoils less. A good friend of mine has an ill fitting little 6 pound 20 gauge with a hard plastic buttpad. It's deeply unpleasant to shoot. Nice to carry, though.
I would think that a 12 gauge with a shorter stock, good recoil pad, and reduced recoil loads could potentially be acceptable.
Good form is also paramount. If someone is scared of the recoil and holds it lightly against the shoulder, it will wallop the hell out of them. The shotgun will be able to get a running start and impact the shoulder. It's the difference between a punch and a shove.
A pistol caliber carbine would also be a good choice. It will have low recoil, and might be easier to learn to shoot. Beretta makes a great one.
I would think that a 12 gauge with a shorter stock, good recoil pad, and reduced recoil loads could potentially be acceptable.
Good form is also paramount. If someone is scared of the recoil and holds it lightly against the shoulder, it will wallop the hell out of them. The shotgun will be able to get a running start and impact the shoulder. It's the difference between a punch and a shove.
A pistol caliber carbine would also be a good choice. It will have low recoil, and might be easier to learn to shoot. Beretta makes a great one.
This is why I suggest 12 gauge over 20... at least in self defense.
You can find almost any type of shell combination under the sun for 12 gauge, as it has been a standard for decades. 20s tend to be more hunting shotguns, so that is what you'll usually find.
In regards to recoil, I think 12 gauge takes a lot of flak when it really shouldn't. I started hunting with 12 gauge at around 14, and it was not an issue. Never got into other shotgun gauges, and continued with the 12 gauge through work (it's a standard in L/E for a reason over 20).
My bed gun happens to be a 12 gauge 870 Police, and with PDX1 rounds (slug and buckshot), it is quiet and light recoiling. My ex-fiancé was fine with it, and she was just on the higher end of petite (5'6", 140ish).
If you can't find a load out of a pump that works for her, get a gas operated semi-auto... along the lines of a 11-87. Dampens up the recoil A LOT!
There are type different recoils being discussed and each should be considered from a differing viewpoint.
The first is actual recoil - a math equation where (keeping it simple) it basically takes into account the weight of the gun, the velocity of the payload, and the mass of the payload. Shooting the same weight and speed of ammo in guns where one weighs less than the other, the lighter gun will have more actual recoil - Newton.
The second is "felt" recoil, aka "kick", aka "perceived" recoil. This has everything to do with how the gun fits the shooter. If it fits perfectly, a lighter gun can appear to "kick less" because of the fit. The opposite is also true where a heavier gun can appear to kick more because of a poor fit. Examples would be "cheek slap", shoulder bruising, etc.
Adding a cushioning device like a recoil pad MAY be a good idea IF it also aids in the fits of the gun; if it makes the fit worse, it isn't much help.
The first is actual recoil - a math equation where (keeping it simple) it basically takes into account the weight of the gun, the velocity of the payload, and the mass of the payload. Shooting the same weight and speed of ammo in guns where one weighs less than the other, the lighter gun will have more actual recoil - Newton.
The second is "felt" recoil, aka "kick", aka "perceived" recoil. This has everything to do with how the gun fits the shooter. If it fits perfectly, a lighter gun can appear to "kick less" because of the fit. The opposite is also true where a heavier gun can appear to kick more because of a poor fit. Examples would be "cheek slap", shoulder bruising, etc.
Adding a cushioning device like a recoil pad MAY be a good idea IF it also aids in the fits of the gun; if it makes the fit worse, it isn't much help.
Besides the size of the shooter and stock fit, there is another factor in managing recoil, and that is shooting "style".
And by that I mean there are other effective ways of shooting the shotgun at close range, other than mounting it on the shoulder.
My mother, at 4' 10 (and a HALF!) never weighing more than 109lbs in her life, wearing a size 3 1/2 ring, could handle her daddy's 12ga Ithaca double barrel. And quite well at close ranges. She shot it from the HIP!!!
With the gun held firmly in the hands, recoil just makes it "swing" back a bit. While I don't think any current defensive school of thought promotes this method, it can, and does work for many people, and you might find that a smaller, recoil sensitive shooter will practice more, and learn to be good, more easily with the gun at the hip than on the shoulder.
The fact that they aren't being battered by the recoil could mean they shoot more, and become more skilled. Do NOT dismiss someone who is a skilled hip shot. They are neither unarmed, nor ineffectively armed. At home defense ranges, they can be highly effective.
It does take quite a bit of practice to become a master at hip shooting, true. Some people are "naturals", and others can learn. Without the punishment of recoil, the learning can be easier.
12ga. No question for me. I don't even own a 20.
And by that I mean there are other effective ways of shooting the shotgun at close range, other than mounting it on the shoulder.
My mother, at 4' 10 (and a HALF!
) never weighing more than 109lbs in her life, wearing a size 3 1/2 ring, could handle her daddy's 12ga Ithaca double barrel. And quite well at close ranges. She shot it from the HIP!!!With the gun held firmly in the hands, recoil just makes it "swing" back a bit. While I don't think any current defensive school of thought promotes this method, it can, and does work for many people, and you might find that a smaller, recoil sensitive shooter will practice more, and learn to be good, more easily with the gun at the hip than on the shoulder.
The fact that they aren't being battered by the recoil could mean they shoot more, and become more skilled. Do NOT dismiss someone who is a skilled hip shot. They are neither unarmed, nor ineffectively armed. At home defense ranges, they can be highly effective.
It does take quite a bit of practice to become a master at hip shooting, true. Some people are "naturals", and others can learn. Without the punishment of recoil, the learning can be easier.
12ga. No question for me. I don't even own a 20.
She is right.
You can easily mitigate recoil, however. Weight of the gun is a big factor, but heavier guns may be harder to handle, and short barrels are usually preferred for defensive purposes.
A gas operated semi-auto has significantly less felt recoil.
The easiest adjustment is to not go crazy on the ammo. You don't need 3" magnum deer slugs for defense, or even "defensive ammo" for that matter. Most people would be better off to use a larger shot in a 2 3/4" game load. At the longest possible distance you could shoot inside most homes, some #4 squirrel loads would be quite sufficient, and will not be more punishing to the shooter than the target.
If your wife on the smaller side, the Remington Youth Model 870 20 gauge might install confidence before she ever fires it. My 21 year old son still comfortably shoots his that he got when he was 10, and still uses it for a house gun, with #4 Long Range Remington squirrel loads.
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