12 Hydrogen Bombs Part 2

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
After reviewing the whole mess - I am of the opinion that China can have Taiwan.
Taiwan is willing to put up a valiant fight for freedom - and that I support.
But the US isnt willing to whole heartedly support Taiwan's defense - and China is too willing to start lobbing isotopes.
And I bet you a million bucks those new missile bases will be fully capable of launching missiles with extended ground to ground capabilities.
Meaning if they cant have Taiwan they will glaze it so no one can have it.
 
Chinese missiles could
hit U.S. forces

By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


New Chinese air-defense missiles near Taiwan
could be used against U.S. forces, as well as
Taiwan's warplanes, defense officials said yesterday.
The Chinese "have learned the lessons of Kosovo
— air defenses are incredibly important," said one
official in response to a report on the missile activity
in yesterday's editions of The Washington Times.
U.S. intelligence agencies recently discovered that
two new bases are being built opposite Taiwan for
Russian-made S-300 surface-to-air missiles, officials
told The Times. An existing base at Longtian already
deploys S-300 batteries.
Meanwhile, White House National Security
Adviser Samuel R. Berger arrived in Beijing
yesterday for talks with Chinese leaders. An
administration official said Mr. Berger would not
discuss U.S. plans to sell arms to Taiwan with the
Chinese.
Mr. Berger's meetings come shortly after the
election of a new Taiwanese president, Chen
Shui-bian, whose Democratic Progressive Party has
advocated independence in the past.
The defense officials said U.S. intelligence
agencies believe the decision to build the new bases
was prompted by NATO air strikes last year on
Serbian forces in Kosovo province and other parts
of Serbia.
The Chinese military, as it did during the 1991
Persian Gulf war, closely monitored the 78-day
Balkan war and saw the need to increase its
air-defense posture opposite Taiwan, specifically
against U.S. air power, they said.
The S-300 batteries are highly capable
air-defense missile systems with radar and tracking
equipment. They can shoot down aircraft and some
short-range ballistic and cruise missiles from as far as
45 miles.
The Taiwan Relations Act stipulates that "it is the
policy of the United States to consider any effort to
determine the future of Taiwan by other than peaceful
means . . . of grave concern to the U.S."
One likely scenario for U.S. forces in such a
conflict would be to use aircraft carrier-based
warplanes and cruise-missile attacks from ships and
submarines. China's current push to buy and develop
its own version of advanced air-defense missiles
would increase its capability to attack U.S. forces,
the officials said.
"It suggests they are doing this not just to counter
Taiwanese forces," said one defense official.
China began issuing new threats against Taiwan in
the weeks before the March 18 presidential elections
there.
Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon declined to
comment directly on The Times report yesterday.
But he seemed to support the contention of other
defense officials about China's priority for building
advanced air defenses.
Mr. Bacon said new site construction for air
defense is not limited to areas near Taiwan. It is
happening in other parts of the country and includes
some deployments of Russian S-300s. "They've been
building air defenses throughout the country," he said
in an interview.
Asked if the Pentagon is worried that the defense
missiles will undermine the military balance across the
Strait, Mr. Bacon said he would not "interpret" what
the construction means.
At the State Department yesterday, spokesman
James Foley played down the deployment of the
S-300s as part of a gradual Chinese military buildup.
Mr. Foley said the Chinese began a "slow but
steady" military-modernization process under
then-President Deng Xiaoping.
"We have not seen a fundamental shift in the
balance of power in that region," he said.
As for China-Taiwan tensions, "we monitor the
situation in the Taiwan Strait very closely, and we
continue to uphold our one-China policy, insisting
that there be a peaceful resolution of cross-Strait
differences and, of course, we continue to urge both
sides to engage in dialogue," Mr. Foley said.
Asked if the new air-defense missile activity could
lead to sales by the Clinton administration of
advanced arms to Taiwan, Mr. Foley said the
administration has provided Taiwan what it needs.
"Under the Taiwan Relations Act, we have a
commitment to provide Taiwan with its legitimate
defense requirements," Mr. Foley said. "And I think
the record, especially of this administration, has been
extraordinarily strong in that regard."
Administration critics say the White House has
imposed a de facto arms-sales moratorium on
Taiwan under policies that favor Beijing.
China opposes all sales of U.S. weapons to the
island, which it views as a breakaway province.
This year, Taiwan has requested four Aegis
battle-management-equipped warships and made
appeals to buy U.S. HARM anti-radar missiles and
advanced air-to-air missiles, as well as
long-range-warning radar. A decision on the arms
request is expected next month.
"The new Taiwan leadership has not made its
own arms-sales request, and does not know the
requests of past governments," said Michael
Pillsbury, a former Pentagon official who was an
election observer for the incoming Democratic
Progressive Party (DPP).
Mr. Pillsbury said the new government could take
a harder line toward the mainland because its party
platform has called for possible pre-emptive missile
strikes against China.
A DPP defense white paper issued in November
states that Taiwan should develop the forces to
"deter or pre-empt potential aggression by
blockading the ports of the enemy and precision
strikes against inland enemy targets," Mr. Pillsbury
said.
Under new DPP leaders, Taiwan could develop
land attack missiles — both air-launched and
surface-to-surface — to carry out such strikes
because its weapons technology base is fairly
advanced, Mr. Pillsbury said.
The DPP opposes development of nuclear
weapons.
A prominent DPP legislator, Parris Chang, who
may become the new foreign minister, has said that
as long as the United States provides conventional
arms needed for Taiwan's defense, there is no need
for nuclear weapons, Mr. Pillsbury said.
 
Continouing to analyze George Hill's invasion sequence I have discovered that China has a 58,000 man Naval Landing Force. This is equivalent to three marine divisions which include tanks and artillery as well as infantry regiments.
If you add this to Chinas airborne divisions (discussed in part one of this thread) this gives China a total of over 100.000 men who could be used in a sudden invasion of Taiwan.

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"I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."
 
I see what is happening in China as similar to pre-WWII Germany. China wants to assimilate land elements it claims should be part of it, but is going to keep going if we let it get what it wants now.

Most people don't realize that Germany would have been incapable of fighting WWII if it had not had the Czechoslovakian industrial base the Allies gave it (I haven't been able to find the % again, but I want to say 50% Nazi panzers were made in Czechoslovakia). "Peace in our time" my...

Not only was the industrial base there, the Czech tanks (LT vz. 38) were superior to the current German ones (PzKpfw I and II). So, the Germans not only had a much larger war machine, they had a more advanced one. This is what is going to happen. WWII would not have been fought- or, at least, would not have been nearly as massive as it was- if there had been resistance to assimilation of the Sudentenland.

Here are what I believe are our options: we can fight now, and stand a decent chance or making a difference, eliminating our largest threat for the foreseeable future, and acting to (in the long run) stabilize this region, and potentially lead to a democratic coup with the "Old Guard" dead; or we can stand idly by and watch our enemy grow fat and strong. And fight him later, when he's bigger and better armed.

Fight now.
 
Spectere is right. The Germans had 10 Panzer Divisions in May 1940 and used them toto destroy the French Army.
Three of those Panzer Divisions were equipped with Cezch tanks. Without those three Panzer Divisions rhe Germans might well have lost the Battle of France,
The moral of this story is that it doesnt always pay to sell out your allies and try to appease yuir enemy.

------------------
"I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."
 
This is an interesting situation. Can you imagine, thousands of crack shock troups unloading out of cargo ships and securing a harbor while at the same time thousands more parachute in (from planes giving the signatures of commercial aircraft) and secure airfields. The PRC invasion fleet would float in or fly in immediatly. The Taiwanese would have to react, and that takes time, how much time would it take to float in those marine landing forces. Yes, there would be a battle for air superiority, but I don't think the PRC would really mind losing a ton of planes to take that island.

And the lousy thing is, I agree with a previous poster, once the PRC was firmly on that island, and threatened to hurt the industries there, we probably wouldn't do anything to try and fight them. Then the people who would get screwed are the Taiwanese. After a few months we would just buy new goods from China (the red one).

At first I thought that we would see some sort of action by China before our election in November, that way they are guarenteed a spineless twit in the oval office, but, they would probably wait until after the election. They wouldn't want to make Klinton look bad. It would suck for them to have GW elected. They wouldn't want a "war like" republican in office who would actually spend money on our military.
 
I still don't understand why so many people think the ROC is asleep at the switch. do any of you really think PRC could have landing ships grounding out without a response from the ROC forces?

the ROC has a strong, vibrant economy, and has some modern weapons. they knew this impasse would occur sooner or later. thus, they have had ample opportunity to assess the possible PRC invasion strategies and prepare appropriately. PRC has to expect massive casualties. plus, there's the effect of the ensuing economic embargo. at this point, I think PRC is just saber-rattling in the hopes of intimidating the ROCers into some form of compromise or capitulation.

down the road, if the hard-liners stay in power in PRC, they might well get more aggressive (particularly if they can rely on a North Korean invasion of South Korea, as mentioned elsewhere). however, in the long run the real threat in the Pacific Rim is still Japan. they still have their racial superiority complex and sooner or later will want to redress their defeat (as did Hitler).
 
Aint worth it.
Let'm have Taiwan... They will have full control of it before we could react and then the war would be to reclaim it.
That kinda war is not good.
 
Now or later, George. I feel the situation can only deteriorate, and- may I say it? Fighting is actually The Right Thing to Do [r]. Not that America has actually done much for that reason lately...
frown.gif
 
Let's not forget...The Reds directly threatened to nuke the West Coast if we interferred.
I take that personally. If we had a wartime consigliere we wouldn't be in this mess.
Light 'em up and glass them over.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
The PLA will take Formosa very soon. Chinas' entire bid for Pacififc Rim Hegemony is hinged on their aquisition of Taiwan. They need the face-saving and the tech boost.
 
I'm with DC. Gosh, I like that sound of that!
wink.gif


George, I think reclaiming Taiwan will be a lot easier if there's little PROC to go back to. Environmental impact studies (if not already done) should be taken immediately. Then send them to a better place.
 
If we had a different administration - I'ld say we should fight - because like Quaker oatmeal "Its the right thing to do!"
This and likely the next admin is too weak.
Our Military is too weak.
Our National Self Image isn't the Strong Armed Man Looking to the horizon with a raised chin - it's more like a scruffy Kurt Cobain hanging his head shuffling his feet without the intestinal fortitude to even raise a fist unless everyone else is doing it too.
We need some balls, people. We're talking taking on CHINA for christ's sake and thats a whole nightmarish 55 gallon drum of worms.
And it would indeed go nuclear... in a heartbeat and just at the momnet we got the upper hand. They would commit seppuku with a nuclear knife just to save face.
And carve off a chunk of the US while they are at it.
 
I did some research yesterday and found that Taiwan's regular active duty army consists of about 270,000 men. Considering that mainland China has about 100,000 airborne troops and 60,000 "marines" (naval landing infantry) which they could use in a sudden surprise attack, I would say that they certainly vulnearable.

[This message has been edited by Hard Ball (edited March 31, 2000).]
 
Outta that number - how many are just REMF's?
Probably most - which leaves X-number of combat arms guys?
Taiwan is toast if China gets some go.
 
For another take on possibilities and probabilities, vis-a-vis China, Lord Rees-Mogg's take is interesting: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/03/27/timopnope01002.html

Since China has generally been adamant about retaining or retaking control of areas of "classic China", I doubt they will ever stop efforts of whatever sort at reunification with Taiwan. The only apparently purely territorial ambition they have shown in the last 40-50 years are toward the Spratly Islands. Their squabbles with Russia as to the historic border have always been limited, and they have not gone past Tibet at a time it was politically and physically feasible.

Interesting times.
 
An interesting factor re a Chinese airborne attackon Taiwan is that each Chinese aorborne division includes a Chemical Warfare company. This allowsthe use of chemical weapons (including nerve gas) during a Chinese airborne attack.
 
China has no ROE or hostile national media to muck with them either. To me, that is their biggest advantage. That, and a leadership that actualy cares about the future of their Nation.
Our lines of comunication are going to be obscenely vulnurable, as oposed to the PLAs' wich will be smaller and on home turf.
 
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