The Chinese have been buying advanced military hardware from the Russsians for the last ten years. They have a significant number of SU27 fighters which are uperior to the F16s the Taiwan airforce is flying, Taiwan is only about 170 miles off the coast of mainland China so thay Chinese combat aircraft can operate over Taiwan easily/.
12 Hydrogen Bombs Could Ruin Your Whole Day
- Thread starter Hard Ball
- Start date
)Chink is right about China lacking the amphibious capability to land any sizeable number of troops on Taiwan. Nor is she capable of air superiority over Taiwan considering her airfleet is mostly composed of obsolete Mig 15, Mig 17, Mig 21 fighters.
A good analogy is the Battle of Britain. A land power (Germany) without any real seaborne capability attempts to take on an island nation (England). Yes, paratroopers could be dropped, but while paratroopers can take and hold for a short period, the key to their success is land reinforcement. Remember Operation Market-Garden and the fiasco of Arnhem? Either a sea-borne invasion or air dropped invasion requires as a prerequisite to success air-superiority - something which China could only win by attrition. Even then, the problem of transporting the millons of troops needed to take Taiwan must be answered. Sustaining the invasion force is another.
China's limited littoral warmaking capability stops her before the invasion can begin. Her lack of control of the airspace means any invasion fleet won't get close to Taiwan.
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited March 25, 2000).]
A good analogy is the Battle of Britain. A land power (Germany) without any real seaborne capability attempts to take on an island nation (England). Yes, paratroopers could be dropped, but while paratroopers can take and hold for a short period, the key to their success is land reinforcement. Remember Operation Market-Garden and the fiasco of Arnhem? Either a sea-borne invasion or air dropped invasion requires as a prerequisite to success air-superiority - something which China could only win by attrition. Even then, the problem of transporting the millons of troops needed to take Taiwan must be answered. Sustaining the invasion force is another.
China's limited littoral warmaking capability stops her before the invasion can begin. Her lack of control of the airspace means any invasion fleet won't get close to Taiwan.
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited March 25, 2000).]
The PLA airforce has over 5,000 fighter craft airframes. Most are MiG19 clones. A great deal are MiG21 clones. The MiG21 clones have been updated with various avionics packages. I do not know if any MiG19 clones have received upgrades of any kind. But still, a stock MiG19 has a 23mm and a 37mm autocannon. This fighter can joust like a champ.
They also have unknown numbers of FC-1 fighters. This is an extended evolution of their F7s. The FC-1 is reminescent of our old F20 which we should have adopted.
And lastly, the PLA has the Su27 and builds their own. What does the Chinese Mil do when it has the capability to build a new fighter type?
A carrier battle group will not be present when they launch an assault. The Chinese will not give us warning. They will attack quickly with subtle preparation.
EMP...too scary to speak of.
COSCO has already been mentioned. That's a lot of cargo ships.
China has also purchased a lot of Russian LCAC type landing craft. China isn't stupid. They won't bungle this operation. This is their Nation face saving campaign which would make or break the ruling regime.
It will be bad.
US intervention? Yeah, IF we intervene, our responce will be stifled by our own politics and unworkable ROE.
Let's look at those thousands of F6\MiG19s again. They are an old type. They don't have BVR engagement ability. But, as I mentioned, they can joust like no other fighter flying. Couple that with the fact that under US ROE, our pilots can't use their BVR ability. They need visual ID first. Visual range is where a MiG19 lives.
What is an F\A-18 going to do against 5 MiG21s and a second echelon of responding MiG19s?
What is 4 F\A-18s going to do against a two-ship of Su-27s who will see them first and fire first? A Su-27 can also outmaneuver the smaller Hornet.
Pilot training, huh? How much training does our side do these days?
[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited March 25, 2000).]
They also have unknown numbers of FC-1 fighters. This is an extended evolution of their F7s. The FC-1 is reminescent of our old F20 which we should have adopted.
And lastly, the PLA has the Su27 and builds their own. What does the Chinese Mil do when it has the capability to build a new fighter type?
A carrier battle group will not be present when they launch an assault. The Chinese will not give us warning. They will attack quickly with subtle preparation.
EMP...too scary to speak of.
COSCO has already been mentioned. That's a lot of cargo ships.
China has also purchased a lot of Russian LCAC type landing craft. China isn't stupid. They won't bungle this operation. This is their Nation face saving campaign which would make or break the ruling regime.
It will be bad.
US intervention? Yeah, IF we intervene, our responce will be stifled by our own politics and unworkable ROE.
Let's look at those thousands of F6\MiG19s again. They are an old type. They don't have BVR engagement ability. But, as I mentioned, they can joust like no other fighter flying. Couple that with the fact that under US ROE, our pilots can't use their BVR ability. They need visual ID first. Visual range is where a MiG19 lives.
What is an F\A-18 going to do against 5 MiG21s and a second echelon of responding MiG19s?
What is 4 F\A-18s going to do against a two-ship of Su-27s who will see them first and fire first? A Su-27 can also outmaneuver the smaller Hornet.
Pilot training, huh? How much training does our side do these days?
[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited March 25, 2000).]
Oleg Volk:
You asked aboutGgerman losses in Crete. The answer depends on whether you count only German losses on Crete or in the whole Crete campaign. On Crete itself most of the German fighting was done by two divisions, the elite 7th Parachute Division and the 5th Mountain Division.
The 7th Parachute Division made the initial assualts jumping to sieze control of the major airfields. These were used as landing zones to ferry in the 5th Mountain Division which was a light infantry unit, not paratroops. The combined German force numbered about27,000 men. They suffered 5,670 casualties, About 60% of these were suffered by the 7th Parachute Division during the initial air assaults.
The Germabs fought 27.500 British and New Zealand troops who suffered 17,325 casualties but that includes prisoners of war.
If you look at the whole campaign, the Germans lost approximately 5,000 troops in an attempt to move troops to Crete by sea. The answer is thus either 5,670 German casualties or 19,670 depending on how you look at it.
Regards, Hard Ball
You asked aboutGgerman losses in Crete. The answer depends on whether you count only German losses on Crete or in the whole Crete campaign. On Crete itself most of the German fighting was done by two divisions, the elite 7th Parachute Division and the 5th Mountain Division.
The 7th Parachute Division made the initial assualts jumping to sieze control of the major airfields. These were used as landing zones to ferry in the 5th Mountain Division which was a light infantry unit, not paratroops. The combined German force numbered about27,000 men. They suffered 5,670 casualties, About 60% of these were suffered by the 7th Parachute Division during the initial air assaults.
The Germabs fought 27.500 British and New Zealand troops who suffered 17,325 casualties but that includes prisoners of war.
If you look at the whole campaign, the Germans lost approximately 5,000 troops in an attempt to move troops to Crete by sea. The answer is thus either 5,670 German casualties or 19,670 depending on how you look at it.
Regards, Hard Ball
As I understand it, Taiwan's position is that if China tries to invade, it goes instantly nuclear.
Yikes. That'll make you rethink the issue. Dunno what all Taiwan has, but how many missiles do you think they could get to Beijing?
China would do well to let it go. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Though, of course, they won't. [sigh] What in the world is ahead?
Yikes. That'll make you rethink the issue. Dunno what all Taiwan has, but how many missiles do you think they could get to Beijing?
China would do well to let it go. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Though, of course, they won't. [sigh] What in the world is ahead?
In this new "everybody has a nuke" era. I always wondered what would happen when we went up against somebody who said: "I don't care if you nuke us 'till we glow -- we'll get in a least one bomb. Are you willing to risk ONE American city over some little island/country/etc?".
Our govt would roll like a bowling ball, wringing theirs hands, etc. as outlined above.
Welcome to the new nuclear blackmail.
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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
Our govt would roll like a bowling ball, wringing theirs hands, etc. as outlined above.
Welcome to the new nuclear blackmail.
------------------
The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
There are no acceptable friendly losses.
However, I see losing 3 million in the short term as being infinitely better than losing 100 million (US) in the long term. I'm willing to bet that decreasing the earth's population by at least 100 million (Chinese) will be an environmentally sane trade for detonating a few nuclear devices in-atmosphere. I think US weapons tend to be "cleaner", anyway...
However, I see losing 3 million in the short term as being infinitely better than losing 100 million (US) in the long term. I'm willing to bet that decreasing the earth's population by at least 100 million (Chinese) will be an environmentally sane trade for detonating a few nuclear devices in-atmosphere. I think US weapons tend to be "cleaner", anyway...
DC, too funny. 
I think any organism that cannot reasonably adapt should go extinct. This includes animals that have inefficient digestive systems and often inadequate sexual equipment, kept solely alive by outside intervention...like the Panda.
[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited March 26, 2000).]
I think any organism that cannot reasonably adapt should go extinct. This includes animals that have inefficient digestive systems and often inadequate sexual equipment, kept solely alive by outside intervention...like the Panda. [This message has been edited by Spectre (edited March 26, 2000).]
The Chinese have now threatend to use nuetron bombs on Taiwan . These are nuclear weapons which kill people by generating powerful pulses of nuetrons but do little if any damage to buildings.
The Chinese apparently stole the special technology required to make nuetron bombs from the United States. They first tested them in 1988. They could deliver nuetron bombs to Taiwan using short ranged ballistic missiles.
We had a large stockpile of nuetron bombs but we dismantled them "in the interests of world peace."
The Chinese apparently stole the special technology required to make nuetron bombs from the United States. They first tested them in 1988. They could deliver nuetron bombs to Taiwan using short ranged ballistic missiles.
We had a large stockpile of nuetron bombs but we dismantled them "in the interests of world peace."
I think ERW's make the most sense of any nuclear device, except for destruction of certain structures.
Even better, one could follow an ERW with a large incendiary bombardment so the squeamish would not have to know the genie was out again...Though, it annoys me when those tasked with breaking things and killing people take a job they're not willing to perform adequately.
Even better, one could follow an ERW with a large incendiary bombardment so the squeamish would not have to know the genie was out again...Though, it annoys me when those tasked with breaking things and killing people take a job they're not willing to perform adequately.
Oh. I does occur to me, to wonder if the US knows where these 12 hydrogen bomb-laden missiles are? If so, surgically strike, then hit the command structure solidly, just for good measure. Hell, hit their most advanced industrial complexes, command structure, and missiles simultaneously. That way, we'll have removed their strike capability, removed their leadership (and made a point), and set their military progression hopefully back quite a few years.
I must have eaten too much red meat lately, I'm getting agressive.
We can't play with these guys, they're going to eat us one day, if we do. I don't think we have long (5 yrs?) to act correctly. America was once called the sleeping giant, but China is now that entity. At least we still have somewhat an advantage in that our free(er
) market does tend to provide more innovative solutions...
I must have eaten too much red meat lately, I'm getting agressive.
We can't play with these guys, they're going to eat us one day, if we do. I don't think we have long (5 yrs?) to act correctly. America was once called the sleeping giant, but China is now that entity. At least we still have somewhat an advantage in that our free(er
) market does tend to provide more innovative solutions...Has anybody noticed that you can't buy anything that isn't "Made in China"? Go to walmart, kmart or even sears, everything is made over there. The chinese would just have to hint at cutting off the supply of cheap goods before most americans would complain. You can't even buy any non "Made in China" Christmas ornaments! Made by some slave who is ready to get his internal organs harvested.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Thats not a good thing... Advanced Russian aircraft fitted with advanced US Avionics...
OUCH.
Already the SU-27 is one of the best planes in the sky... they dont need any help.
OUCH.
Already the SU-27 is one of the best planes in the sky... they dont need any help.
What's interesting is that the Chinese don't even try to hide what they are doing. They openly say "We will destroy all opposition".
Hitler at least tried to hide some of Germany's build-up and intentions.
China also has allies in the region that would aid in it's campaign. Pakistan has close military ties to China and will help to keep India occupied. India, the strongest adversary China will face in the region, is currently under US sanctions for darring to develope Nuclear capability.
Hitler at least tried to hide some of Germany's build-up and intentions.
China also has allies in the region that would aid in it's campaign. Pakistan has close military ties to China and will help to keep India occupied. India, the strongest adversary China will face in the region, is currently under US sanctions for darring to develope Nuclear capability.
On the comment regarding the loss of 100 millon Chinese, I don't think the Commie govt. could care less if 100 millon of their citizens died. Population control (witness the one child family limit) has been a concern for about 3 decades now and there is no end in sight. War, accompanied by famine and disease, has traditionally played a major role in influencing China's population. While I think it is mostly grandstanding, the Commies know Chinese history and are prepared to accept losses. After all, aren't the children of the leadership over here in the US?
Re George Hill's comment that the Chinese might try an air assualt on Taiwan I think that it is entirely possible. The Chimese armed forces include four divisions (Approximately 45,000 men) and they have many airbases within 200 miles of Taiwan. If they disrupted the Taiwanese airforce and air defense system with ballistic missile attacks their chances of initial succes (siezing most or all of the major airfields) would be fairly high. Then they would have to air ferry in non airborne units to reinforce their paratroops. It would certainly not be a walkover, but they could very well win if they decide to try.
[Slurrrp!] Yummy. Thanks, DC! 
Not trying to be callous, 4V50, but I think it's gonna go down one way or t' other. If we can minimize American casualties (and stand by a loyal ally), hit 'em while we have anything like an advantage. Whether they care or not, won't matter, if the leadership is dead.
I believe being told I'm about to be killed is reason enough. YMMV.
Not trying to be callous, 4V50, but I think it's gonna go down one way or t' other. If we can minimize American casualties (and stand by a loyal ally), hit 'em while we have anything like an advantage. Whether they care or not, won't matter, if the leadership is dead.
I believe being told I'm about to be killed is reason enough. YMMV.