OneInchGroup
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Slugs in Smoothbores, Etc.
Hi CPTM Clark,
From your last post:
Slug Effectiveness
" I've had the pleasure of hunting with slugs for many years, with the result of a lot of experience with bullet-on-body results. I'm sure others here have too, but I haven't seen this mentioned, so here goes.
At close range, say inside 50 yards, the far and away, hand's down winner in effectiveness on a 180 pound plus and minus animal is the foster slug.
This was likely true in cases of Fosters compared to the smaller diameter sabots that were essentially rifle bullets carried in a plastic housing that would fall away at or just past the muzzle. NOT true with impact discarding Sabots that have the same frontal area of the old Fosters.
I now use sabots and rifled barrels because of the much greater accuracy and effective range of those projectiles. They are NOT more effective in terminal ballistics at short range. This includes the newer high-tech bullets.
Sabot slugs have much less velocity for equal mass, and so much less kinetic energy.
Again, this is true only for Gen 1 Sabots that had limited frontal area and muzzle discarding plastic carriers. Modern Sabots (Gen 3 and up)that carry one ounce plus slugs and travel at the same velocity as the Fosters will absolutely have the same impact force on target. Kinetic energy, knockdown power, etc. is just a physics problem. Mass times velocity equals impact force.
1700 fps out of a 2 2/4" 1 ounce slug gives energy well over 3000 fp., and the 3" number is hotter but won't group as well. Hate to be disagreeable, but by and large the 3" magnum loads are MORE accurate out to longer distances than the 2 3/4. If group sizes are opening up on you with the heavier load, its not the shell, its the duck (little pun there....flinching is what's opening your groups)
I just miked three that I recovered from fleshy critters and they are consistent in expansion at about 1.12 inches, with a big hole in the center like a donut.
A slug that forms that donut hole is evidence of a poor selection of material for the velocity. What that is all about is the concave back end of the slug is opening forward on impact, mushrooming from the rear and in effect flowing back away from point of impact. This is usually from too soft lead pushing too fast against a too-hard target. Remember, soft lead will "upset flow" at 9000 psi applied cold.
I don't know why they don't tumble, but apparently they don't.
Ballistic coefficient is the determining factor here. Fosters rely on the "skirt" to impart a bit of ballistic drag, keeping the rear facing to the rear by simple aerodynamics. Most Foster type slugs have a ballistic coefficient of about .030 to .035, almost all New Gen Sabots have a BC of .095 to .110, which simply means they are lots longer, and thus have better response to flying through the air.
One out of six didn't expand. Most likely a materials problem, too hard lead, or way softer target .
If you hit your target solidly, these probably will not exit, which is good in your scenario. The rifle bullet type sabot slugs almost always exit.
Only a good thing if you have enough penetration to down the target before all the force is lost to expansion.
Fosters slow down a lot faster than the smaller sabot bullets, therefore the superior behavior of sabots beyond my made up limit of 50 yards.
Again, the rate of velocity loss is a matter of frontal area (wind resistance) weight of the shot ( Mass/Inertia) and the velocity achieved at the exit from the muzzle. Most Fosters die out at around 50 yards because they are actually beginning to flare even before they hit anything, effectively applying their own air brakes.They have all the aerodynamic efficiency of a trash can tossed off the truck.
Now somebody has invented the "powerball" type slug this year, which is a foster type with a ball in the cavity to keep it even against the bore. The Powerball is not new by any stretch, just a repetition of a design offered over ten years ago. The original of this design was the BuckBuster Bullet offered by a fellow named Tony Nobles in the 1990's, with a modification of it introduced a little later and still offered today by Polywad Company. The original BuckBuster type slug can still be had as a reloadable component from Ballistics Products YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BUY THESE FROM FEDERAL. They have not invented anything, they are just doing a better selling job than any of the actual inventors have done. They claim drastic improvements in accuracy in a smoothbore.
2 to 3 inch groups at 50 to 75 yards is about the norm for these. This is the high water mark for a design that dates back nearly a century. Should lead less and more evenly too.
Leading in the barrel is again a function of materials, not the modification to the Foster that "powerball "design has to offer
Perfect for a defense gun that will also be used for buckshot (rifled barrels are terrible with shot). PLEASE somebody give me test results on this one.
Low penetration is best with shot, as has been said. I can't be sure of this 5 yards or less range, so's I prefer to have a lethal option a bit farther out, and that means slug. Shot is much less lethal at more than bedroom ranges, and the pattern up close is so small that your hit probablity is not much better. (Try head shooting a turkey at ten yards when you are excited). Lot's of folks miss.
There is an industry accepted standard formula for calculating the energy per pellet on target for any and all shotshells, which was developed by a gent named L.P. Brezney a few years back. Everyone in the Industry knows the formula, and the answers, but most have elected NOT to tell the rest of us about it. Too many facts ruin the marketing, don't cha know.
Penetration of the more powerful fosters is much less than the sabot bullets. So called "killing power" is greater too. No contest, unless this ball slug is as good as advertised.
I'm gonna belabor the point, some. Killing power is a function of slug weight, frontal area, velocity, and shot placement. An equal weight sabot with a .75 inch diameter hammerhead configuration will exactly match a Foster at the same speed, with or without the powerball feature. All the rest is mythical, or advertising hype.Only thing is the sabot will still have a chance of being on target at ranges way, way past where the Fosters have dropped into the dirt.
Sorry if I rambled, but this is interesting to me. Now, I wish someone would post some test results from a variety of sabot slugs. Maybe that should be a seperate thread?
Yup, its gonna be a separate thread, alright. PM us and we can point out where the answers are, but we can't post information from some of our sources in a public forum whout someone having a major hissy fit.
Hi CPTM Clark,
From your last post:
Slug Effectiveness
" I've had the pleasure of hunting with slugs for many years, with the result of a lot of experience with bullet-on-body results. I'm sure others here have too, but I haven't seen this mentioned, so here goes.
At close range, say inside 50 yards, the far and away, hand's down winner in effectiveness on a 180 pound plus and minus animal is the foster slug.
This was likely true in cases of Fosters compared to the smaller diameter sabots that were essentially rifle bullets carried in a plastic housing that would fall away at or just past the muzzle. NOT true with impact discarding Sabots that have the same frontal area of the old Fosters.
I now use sabots and rifled barrels because of the much greater accuracy and effective range of those projectiles. They are NOT more effective in terminal ballistics at short range. This includes the newer high-tech bullets.
Sabot slugs have much less velocity for equal mass, and so much less kinetic energy.
Again, this is true only for Gen 1 Sabots that had limited frontal area and muzzle discarding plastic carriers. Modern Sabots (Gen 3 and up)that carry one ounce plus slugs and travel at the same velocity as the Fosters will absolutely have the same impact force on target. Kinetic energy, knockdown power, etc. is just a physics problem. Mass times velocity equals impact force.
1700 fps out of a 2 2/4" 1 ounce slug gives energy well over 3000 fp., and the 3" number is hotter but won't group as well. Hate to be disagreeable, but by and large the 3" magnum loads are MORE accurate out to longer distances than the 2 3/4. If group sizes are opening up on you with the heavier load, its not the shell, its the duck (little pun there....flinching is what's opening your groups)
I just miked three that I recovered from fleshy critters and they are consistent in expansion at about 1.12 inches, with a big hole in the center like a donut.
A slug that forms that donut hole is evidence of a poor selection of material for the velocity. What that is all about is the concave back end of the slug is opening forward on impact, mushrooming from the rear and in effect flowing back away from point of impact. This is usually from too soft lead pushing too fast against a too-hard target. Remember, soft lead will "upset flow" at 9000 psi applied cold.
I don't know why they don't tumble, but apparently they don't.
Ballistic coefficient is the determining factor here. Fosters rely on the "skirt" to impart a bit of ballistic drag, keeping the rear facing to the rear by simple aerodynamics. Most Foster type slugs have a ballistic coefficient of about .030 to .035, almost all New Gen Sabots have a BC of .095 to .110, which simply means they are lots longer, and thus have better response to flying through the air.
One out of six didn't expand. Most likely a materials problem, too hard lead, or way softer target .
If you hit your target solidly, these probably will not exit, which is good in your scenario. The rifle bullet type sabot slugs almost always exit.
Only a good thing if you have enough penetration to down the target before all the force is lost to expansion.
Fosters slow down a lot faster than the smaller sabot bullets, therefore the superior behavior of sabots beyond my made up limit of 50 yards.
Again, the rate of velocity loss is a matter of frontal area (wind resistance) weight of the shot ( Mass/Inertia) and the velocity achieved at the exit from the muzzle. Most Fosters die out at around 50 yards because they are actually beginning to flare even before they hit anything, effectively applying their own air brakes.They have all the aerodynamic efficiency of a trash can tossed off the truck.
Now somebody has invented the "powerball" type slug this year, which is a foster type with a ball in the cavity to keep it even against the bore. The Powerball is not new by any stretch, just a repetition of a design offered over ten years ago. The original of this design was the BuckBuster Bullet offered by a fellow named Tony Nobles in the 1990's, with a modification of it introduced a little later and still offered today by Polywad Company. The original BuckBuster type slug can still be had as a reloadable component from Ballistics Products YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BUY THESE FROM FEDERAL. They have not invented anything, they are just doing a better selling job than any of the actual inventors have done. They claim drastic improvements in accuracy in a smoothbore.
2 to 3 inch groups at 50 to 75 yards is about the norm for these. This is the high water mark for a design that dates back nearly a century. Should lead less and more evenly too.
Leading in the barrel is again a function of materials, not the modification to the Foster that "powerball "design has to offer
Perfect for a defense gun that will also be used for buckshot (rifled barrels are terrible with shot). PLEASE somebody give me test results on this one.
Low penetration is best with shot, as has been said. I can't be sure of this 5 yards or less range, so's I prefer to have a lethal option a bit farther out, and that means slug. Shot is much less lethal at more than bedroom ranges, and the pattern up close is so small that your hit probablity is not much better. (Try head shooting a turkey at ten yards when you are excited). Lot's of folks miss.
There is an industry accepted standard formula for calculating the energy per pellet on target for any and all shotshells, which was developed by a gent named L.P. Brezney a few years back. Everyone in the Industry knows the formula, and the answers, but most have elected NOT to tell the rest of us about it. Too many facts ruin the marketing, don't cha know.
Penetration of the more powerful fosters is much less than the sabot bullets. So called "killing power" is greater too. No contest, unless this ball slug is as good as advertised.
I'm gonna belabor the point, some. Killing power is a function of slug weight, frontal area, velocity, and shot placement. An equal weight sabot with a .75 inch diameter hammerhead configuration will exactly match a Foster at the same speed, with or without the powerball feature. All the rest is mythical, or advertising hype.Only thing is the sabot will still have a chance of being on target at ranges way, way past where the Fosters have dropped into the dirt.
Sorry if I rambled, but this is interesting to me. Now, I wish someone would post some test results from a variety of sabot slugs. Maybe that should be a seperate thread?
Yup, its gonna be a separate thread, alright. PM us and we can point out where the answers are, but we can't post information from some of our sources in a public forum whout someone having a major hissy fit.
and some I will take good natured exception to.