12 guage sabots in a smooth bore

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expeditionx

New member
Sales guy at a gun shop said he uses buckshot and sabots out of a smooth bore. I asked him " won't the sabots tumble as they leave the barrel" his responce " at home defense ranges they will stay fairly straight enough".

Has anyone tested this concept? I figured it wouldnt work but i have not even attempted it. If it does work Id like to try some copper solids out to 5 yards out of my 870 smoothbore. I hate cleaning smeared lead so it might be interesting for very close up work.
 
Sabots from a smoothbore

Like all good guesses, this one's half right. SOME Sabot slugs work well in a smooth bore, others are a waste. Typically the Sabots that have the plastic fall away on exiting the muzzle will not work as well as the ones that have the whole payload rig, plastic and lead, or whatever, stay together until impact with the target. Generally these are good out to about 50-60 yards and will hold tight groups at that distance. Look for high velocity sabot slugs for best results. The low recoil/youth rounds lose velocity, impact force and accuracy much sooner than the fast magnum loads. Foster and similar "rifled" slugs are the more typical, and cheaper, choice for short range work (did you really mean 5 yards?) but they foul the barrel pretty fast even in a smooth bore. (And they don't really spin all that much, anyway)
The only real solution past 60 yards is rifled barrel or rifled choke tube, with a good high velocity, impact discarding sabot. By the way, this is of course an opinion, like you can get anywhere, even from a gunshop salesman. Difference is that in this case we can back it up with a whole lot of competition results. Won't publish them here, to avoid offending all the other folks with other very fixed opinions, but a PM will get you the data.
 
Yep, 5 yards. But longer ranges would make it more feasible to buy them.
I may just go ahead and get a rifled barrel anyway. Hastings 870 barrel seems like a fair deal.
 
Rifled Barrel

The Hastings is among the best retro barrels for slugs, and they also make their own ammunition for them, which is a really effective combo. Of course, for a few more bucks, there are a couple single shot "Ultra Slug" tackdrivers out there, so you could buy the whole gun and keep your birdshooter intact, as long as that followup shot can wait a few seconds..............Our targets don't generally get to running away much, so single shots are OK for competition, maybe not ideal for deer, tho. :D
 
Ok, in the 400 dollar range, what is a good tack driving slug gun that is currently in production. I know of of one I liked before but Ithaca has closed up shop. The mossburg one is not made any more as far as I know. The savage one has a plastic stock that is keeping me from pursuing it.
The NEF one seems good but Ive read about them going loose from alot of slugs torquing the barrel. Im open to any options.
 
$400.00 Slug Guns

Most popular one we've seen is the H&R Ultra Slug Hunter, under $300.00 most places. Next would be Savage Model 210 Slug Warrior, pushing the limit at about $435.00, but it is a bolt action with that nice convenience of a second shot in case you're hunting grouchy deer and your first shot just makes one angry with you............ :D Both are very accurate, and we've heard no big complaints about defectives or wear and tear problems.
 
Home Defense and Jackasses

Mosinjoe,

Kind of wondering which of the possible choices of jackass you were referring to? Also kind of hoping it wasn't this jackass, but given the reception I get sometimes, there's always the possibility. Sooooo, if you were asking me, the score at my end is breakins-one, bad guy zero, homeowner one, no shots fired, but I think the bad guy may have wet himself on meeting a 12 gauge while carrying only a Stanley pry bar.............. :D
 
One inch,

I was assuming he meant the salesguy suggesting sabots.
Because the sales guy mentioned the sabots in terms of home defense ranges. Other than that I don't know.
 
I just bought an older Stevens 12 guage - model 67L series e. It's a smooth bore - mounted a truglow red dot 30mm sight, instead of the rifle type sight that it came equipped with.

I've tested Winchester & Brenn eke slugs Through this shotgun, at 75 yards it will hold a six inch group for 10 shots. Brenneke suggests the optimum range to sight their slugs is 88 yards. [ 2 3/4 inch - 1 ounce projectile].

Mosinjoe, referring to someone as a jackass around here ain't going to score you any points. Please be civil - as this is something the mods insist on while posting on this site.

12-34hom.
 
My personal experience with a Benelli with an IC choke tube is that the sabot slugs will group almost twice as large at 50 yards as a Forster type slug.

The oblong holes they made would seem to indicate that they were starting to tip at that time.

I would think that they would be totally adequate at short range from almost any barrel, but I don't see them being an improvement over conventional slugs at that range.

Everyone says they need to be fired from rifled barrels, but when they were first introduced such animals were rare.
 
To clarify my remark: I was refering to the salesperson that infered that he would use sabot loads in a smoothbore for home defense.It has been my experience on several occasions to hear bad advice given across a gun counter regarding shooting and home defense. I personally would NOT use any kind of a slug for home defense with the layout of my house and the close proximity of my neighbors homes which very well could be affected by me using such a load. My remark was calling attention to the cavalier response of the salesperson and not directed to anyone on this thread. :)
 
Sabots from Smoothbore

Oh, THAT Jackass! Thanks for the clarification. Had me checking my back for a pack saddle for a minute there.
I suppose you could suggest sabots for close quarters combat, if the big concern was getting $10.00 for 5 instead of only $8.00 for a box of 25 #4 shells. Wouldn't expect much utility in the self defense situation specified, though.
At zero to about 10 feet, where this action is likely to take place, a blast of birdshot would likely scare the bad guy at least half to death, and #4 or larger would be an almost 100% likely kill shot.
Actually, just racking the slide on a pump 12 will cause most burglars to make a fast retreat, if police stats can be trusted.
A short barrel cylinder bore 12 firing #4 shot will put enough lead in a pattern the size of a pie plate at up to 20 feet that any shot to center mass should not require a second round to be fired, except in the most extreme speed-freak situation. :)
 
The shot column from fine shot at close range in the shell you mentioned would be a definitive fight stopper. I would also say that when articulating it's use in a courtroom would be much more palatable (I hope!) in front of a judge and jury if such a scenario ever occured. I honestly did not intend to inflame anyone with my remark regarding the salespersons logic, but my hackles raise at such reasoning and feel that such people do more to harm gun ownership than to help it. Assaults and home invasions are somewhat fluid and demand much of the person who has to defend his castle. The notion of fighting fair and not stepping over the line in a situation of grave extremity is most likely what will be addressed in a courtroom. Having said that, I'm in the camp of giving a perp all the violence I can muster if so challenged. But all the time I have to use what is "fair" in the eyes of the law.(That could be a fluid situation as well! Remember the verdict in the O.J. debacle?!!?) It's sad but sometimes the guilty go free and the innocent go to jail. :(
 
If, for the sake of argument, you were faced with a burglary in progress, and all you could put your hands on was your (fill in the blank) smoothbore and a handful of sabot slugs, then by all means, use them.
If, however, you had planned better, then I am sure that you would pick a more effective load for your shottie.
Even more important, most guys at gunshops don't know jack............
 
Any slug rifled or otherwise would be a formidable close range destructive tool to dispatch the human animal or any other animal for that matter.The discussion in this thread opened with a salesperson stating that sabots could be employed in a home defense situation at close range and there is no doubt that they can be used. Oh well, we got off track a little with my castigating of the salespersons logic in his statement to the original poster and the rest is history. The short answer is that sabots should be used in a RIFLED slug barrel and rifled slugs should be used in a smooth bore, with an improved or modified choke. Now, the question arises if this a viable choice ( use of slugs in ANY form) for home defense. There are, IMHHO, better choices in a defensive scenario. Lots of info in this forum regarding good ammo in this forum and I would suggest doing a search on that issue.
 
Oh yeah, Mannlicher, If all I had was slugs, and I could get the drop on the miscreant who meant to do me harm, than the miscreant would be in a world of hurt. That would happen without any hesitation. :D
 
Slug Effectiveness

I've had the pleasure of hunting with slugs for many years, with the result of a lot of experience with bullet-on-body results. I'm sure others here have too, but I haven't seen this mentioned, so here goes.
At close range, say inside 50 yards, the far and away, hand's down winner in effectiveness on a 180 pound plus and minus animal is the foster slug.
I now use sabots and rifled barrels because of the much greater accuracy and effective range of those projectiles. They are NOT more effective in terminal ballistics at short range. This includes the newer high-tech bullets.
Sabot slugs have much less velocity for equal mass, and so much less kinetic energy. 1700 fps out of a 2 2/4" 1 ounce slug gives energy well over 3000 fp., and the 3" number is hotter but won't group as well. I just miked three that I recovered from fleshy critters and they are consistent in expansion at about 1.12 inches, with a big hole in the center like a donut. I don't know why they don't tumble, but apparently they don't. One out of six didn't expand.
If you hit your target solidly, these probably will not exit, which is good in your scenario. The rifle bullet type sabot slugs almost always exit.

Fosters slow down a lot faster than the smaller sabot bullets, therefore the superior behavior of sabots beyond my made up limit of 50 yards.

Now somebody has invented the "powerball" type slug this year, which is a foster type with a ball in the cavity to keep it even against the bore. They claim drastic improvements in accuracy in a smoothbore. Should lead less and more evenly too. Perfect for a defense gun that will also be used for buckshot (rifled barrels are terrible with shot). PLEASE somebody give me test results on this one.

Low penetration is best with shot, as has been said. I can't be sure of this 5 yards or less range, so's I prefer to have a lethal option a bit farther out, and that means slug. Shot is much less lethal at more than bedroom ranges, and the pattern up close is so small that your hit probablity is not much better. (Try head shooting a turkey at ten yards when you are excited). Lot's of folks miss. Penetration of the more powerful fosters is much less than the sabot bullets. So called "killing power" is greater too. No contest, unless this ball slug is as good as advertised.

Sorry if I rambled, but this is interesting to me. Now, I wish someone would post some test results from a variety of sabot slugs. Maybe that should be a seperate thread?
 
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