12 Guage for Home Defense?
- Thread starter Usertag
- Start date
That's why, after extensive research on my part, I chose the Winchester SXP Defender. Give it a looksie.Yes, birdshot can produce horrendous surface wounds, and can certainly be lethal if you're close enough.
00 buck can be effective out much farther. To see the damage to intermal organs requires an autopsy.
LOL, short bbl'd pistol grip and birdshot, huh?
Once watched a couple gang banger types try out their new pistol grip only shot gun. Admittedly, they had little experience with it, but when they'd fire at 10ft from the hip (they'd brought a bunch of phone books) they'd miss. When they tried to operate the slide the gun would turn at a 45 deg. angle and the slide wouldn't operate until the second or third try.
Yes, with practice that kind of performance can be greatly improved upon, but the pistol grip only shotgun's performance is much less efficient than a stocked shotgun. They were designed for storage in small places.
After that, they had to try out their new 9mm by unleashing rapid fire shots at no particular target in the general direction of a dirt bank.
Hope my comments aren't interpretated as taking such individuals lightly. Just making an observation.
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new_scopeshooter
New member
I use a win 1300 8 round ext tube loaded with rem #4 buck those seem to pattern the best out. Of my gun..... best adv would be try diff loads and. Buy bulk what works bestfor you and practice a lot.
A lot of fine folk are putting down the 12g Bird Shot as a self defence load.
Well, if the Bird Shot load in 12g is inadaquate.
Then those Revolvers like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor that shoot the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????
Someone or anyone .....Explain
Well, if the Bird Shot load in 12g is inadaquate.
Then those Revolvers like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor that shoot the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????
Someone or anyone .....Explain
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I think many shotgunners and handgunners live in different worlds.
Many handgun shooters by now have gone round and round on the debates about bullet effectiveness. The debate about "one-shot-stops", "knock-down-power", and things like the "Relative Incapacitation Index" etc etc...
I don't think a lot of shotgun shooters are familiar with those things, and that's why you hear things like advising birdshot for HD.
Yes - birdshot is going to make a gruesome wound. But a gruesome wound isn't somethin gthat in and of itself is going to necesarily stop an attack.
There are criminals who will break off an attack at the sight of home owner with a shotgun. I wouldn't recomend that homeowners get a plastic replica in the hopes that the sight of a shotgun will stop a home invasion.
There are criminals who will break off an attack upon hearing a home owner cycle a pump shotgun. I wouldn't recomend that homeowners play a recording of one or cycle dud shells in a pump in the hopes that the sound of a shotgun will stop a home invasion.
There are criminals who will break off an attack when they are fired upon. There are criminals who will break off an attack if they are wounded - even when sustaining a minor wound.
But the only proven way to stop an attack by criminal is damage vital tissue.
The attack will stop when vital tissue is damaged.
I constantly refer people to the Tactical Firearms Institute on the subject.
Tactical Brief number 10:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
I'll post the following exerpts for those people who are not going to go out and read the breif:
Many handgun shooters by now have gone round and round on the debates about bullet effectiveness. The debate about "one-shot-stops", "knock-down-power", and things like the "Relative Incapacitation Index" etc etc...
I don't think a lot of shotgun shooters are familiar with those things, and that's why you hear things like advising birdshot for HD.
Yes - birdshot is going to make a gruesome wound. But a gruesome wound isn't somethin gthat in and of itself is going to necesarily stop an attack.
There are criminals who will break off an attack at the sight of home owner with a shotgun. I wouldn't recomend that homeowners get a plastic replica in the hopes that the sight of a shotgun will stop a home invasion.
There are criminals who will break off an attack upon hearing a home owner cycle a pump shotgun. I wouldn't recomend that homeowners play a recording of one or cycle dud shells in a pump in the hopes that the sound of a shotgun will stop a home invasion.
There are criminals who will break off an attack when they are fired upon. There are criminals who will break off an attack if they are wounded - even when sustaining a minor wound.
But the only proven way to stop an attack by criminal is damage vital tissue.
The attack will stop when vital tissue is damaged.
I constantly refer people to the Tactical Firearms Institute on the subject.
Tactical Brief number 10:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
I'll post the following exerpts for those people who are not going to go out and read the breif:
I also want to refute the idea that at close range birdshot acts like a "column of lead" which is just like getting hit by a slug.
That is not the case.
Smaller shot even fired at close range starts to disperse and lose velocity very quickly, and it does not penertrate to 12 to 14 inches necesary to damage vital tissue.
That is not the case.
Smaller shot even fired at close range starts to disperse and lose velocity very quickly, and it does not penertrate to 12 to 14 inches necesary to damage vital tissue.
The OP seems to be asking about brands,
With bullets, there are differences between Winchester Ranger T, Remington Golden Sabre and Federal Hydra Shok. With shot - it's not the same like with bullets. These are just round balls of metal. And as has been stated before - the same brand can act differently in three different shotguns.
There may be some differences with plated versus non-plated and a flight-control cup, lack thereof or even a spreader wad. Wolf shotgun ammo has been shown to open up quite a bit... at HD ranges it might be a good thing.
If you are going to shoot someone at 10 feet - you have to decide if it's better to make a 1" hole or twelve or sixteen .3" holes spread across a 3" diameter.
Just to throw something else in the mix - you get different results if you fire shot through a rifled shotgun barrel.
Normally a shot pattern for normal shells (not FliteControl type cups) opens up 1" per yard from the muzzle. So for typical HD distance - yes you're going to have to aim because you're going to be creating 3"-4" holes.
However... with a rifled barrel and a load like Wolf - which is known for opening up pretty early you can get some pretty large shot patterns.
I calculated that the Wolf through rifled barrel spreads 3.6 times the "normal" rate.
Normal shot through a smoothbore would give roughly a 5" pattern at 5 yards. The Wolf through rifled opens up to 18"
So firing Wolf at 6 feet should create a 7.2" pattern, 10.8" pattern at 9 feet.
That's pretty darn close to the so called myth that you don't have to aim.
Granted the pattern takes on a ring shape...
Buckshot through a rifled barrel:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm
With bullets, there are differences between Winchester Ranger T, Remington Golden Sabre and Federal Hydra Shok. With shot - it's not the same like with bullets. These are just round balls of metal. And as has been stated before - the same brand can act differently in three different shotguns.
There may be some differences with plated versus non-plated and a flight-control cup, lack thereof or even a spreader wad. Wolf shotgun ammo has been shown to open up quite a bit... at HD ranges it might be a good thing.
If you are going to shoot someone at 10 feet - you have to decide if it's better to make a 1" hole or twelve or sixteen .3" holes spread across a 3" diameter.
Just to throw something else in the mix - you get different results if you fire shot through a rifled shotgun barrel.
Normally a shot pattern for normal shells (not FliteControl type cups) opens up 1" per yard from the muzzle. So for typical HD distance - yes you're going to have to aim because you're going to be creating 3"-4" holes.
However... with a rifled barrel and a load like Wolf - which is known for opening up pretty early you can get some pretty large shot patterns.
I calculated that the Wolf through rifled barrel spreads 3.6 times the "normal" rate.
Normal shot through a smoothbore would give roughly a 5" pattern at 5 yards. The Wolf through rifled opens up to 18"
So firing Wolf at 6 feet should create a 7.2" pattern, 10.8" pattern at 9 feet.
That's pretty darn close to the so called myth that you don't have to aim.
Granted the pattern takes on a ring shape...
Buckshot through a rifled barrel:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm
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My own idea is that the majority of self defence shooting scenerios are within a very close range.
Mostly all would happen within a 5'-10' feet area, and many times even closer....And it's all about you having total control of your firearm.
In a rapid fast pace situation....A 12 gauge XX Buck shot being fired in a very close range and in a small area, is much more difficult in handling than shooting Bird Shot rounds with less recoil.
Recoil and control is a major factor.
XX Buck is fine for large area and outdoor distance combat.
Maybe I'm wrong....But.
Mostly all would happen within a 5'-10' feet area, and many times even closer....And it's all about you having total control of your firearm.
In a rapid fast pace situation....A 12 gauge XX Buck shot being fired in a very close range and in a small area, is much more difficult in handling than shooting Bird Shot rounds with less recoil.
Recoil and control is a major factor.
XX Buck is fine for large area and outdoor distance combat.
Maybe I'm wrong....But.
With birdshot, yes .410 revolver are a poor choice. .410 Buckshot is available and these revolvers also are capable of firing .45 Long Colt or, in the case of the S&W Governor, .45 ACP ammunition that is also a much better SD loading that .410 Birdshot.
Even at close range, most birdshot still penetrates quite shallowly. Also, there is no guarantee that 5-10 feet is the maximum distance at which you will have to use your shotgun. For example, in my home I have a clear 10-15 yard shot from my bedroom door to my back door (which is also a likely point of entry for a home invader).
If the recoil of 12ga buckshot is too severe, one would be better served by using a 20ga loaded with buckshot rather than a 12ga with birdshot.
Bird shot rantings
At close range bird shot will punch right through a 2x4 and leave a hole at least 1 inch wide. I've got an emergency room doctor who is a good friend. He pulled the wad out of a stiff at the hospital. Nothing they could do from a shot of birdshot up close. Too much trauma. You could probably patch a few holes from buck fired at distance, but any shot column near point blank is devastating. This debate keeps coming up again and again and again and again. Fact is that like graysmoke said it's about control of your weapon. If your wife is comfortable with 410 for skeet and that's what she has by the bed loaded with #8, I pity the fool who tries to break in the house in the middle of the night. Yes there are better choices that have X inches more of penetration and are FBI rated but sorry to tell you DOA is DOA. A good 20, 16 or 12 guage firing #6 or larger shot within 10 feet into the face of an attacker will stop the threat in a hurry! Short of the person wearing body armor under a thick leather jacket, birdshot is going to mess up some punk doper cat burglar stalkers day. If you can't afford to buy and practice with buckshot, there is nothing wrong with skeet or trap shooting to practice reload, swing, lead, fire. Self defense is a fluid situation and a person who shoots shotgun regularly is in a lot better shape to defened agaist a moving intruder than someone who just strictly shooting bullseyes on stationary targets. If you can afford buckshot great! If not, don't be scared it's not adequate for defense. Ever see the episode of Son's of guns where they made a 410 kill stick for gators shooting shot loads? A 410 is leathan when correctly employed by a confident user.
I've got a friend who is obsessed about having a 44 magnum with 300 grain buffalo bore bullets or a 450 or 500 S&W magnum to put down bear when he's in the forest! We bought a pair of identical 44 Redhawks and with full power loads are both having problems keeping a good groups at 25 paces with these big barking magnums. Mid range stuff is so much more comfortable and controllable but my friend doesn't think they are adequate for bear defense! For me a 357 mag is a better overall defensive weapon because it fits my hand better and I can hit with it to some distance and group my shots pretty well. I'd feel comfortable plinking 2 liter bottles at 50 yards with the 357. I'm not holding my breath with the 44 page 30 feet! I'll keep shooting the 44 to improve cause It's fun and challenging, but the 357 for me is a much better bullet chucker for my needs. Any handgun against a bear is a big question mark so you better be able to place your shots into the vitals.
Some of you are obsessed with shotgun power and shot size without considering the individual skill level of different shooters. First rule of self defense. Have a reliable gun you are confident to use under stress! If a person can confidently handle a 22 rifle they are better prepared to defend themself than someone who is unfamiliar with a big 12 guage firing slugs. I'd sure like to know statistically what percentage of guys shot point blank with bird shot were able to continue their attack?
At close range bird shot will punch right through a 2x4 and leave a hole at least 1 inch wide. I've got an emergency room doctor who is a good friend. He pulled the wad out of a stiff at the hospital. Nothing they could do from a shot of birdshot up close. Too much trauma. You could probably patch a few holes from buck fired at distance, but any shot column near point blank is devastating. This debate keeps coming up again and again and again and again. Fact is that like graysmoke said it's about control of your weapon. If your wife is comfortable with 410 for skeet and that's what she has by the bed loaded with #8, I pity the fool who tries to break in the house in the middle of the night. Yes there are better choices that have X inches more of penetration and are FBI rated but sorry to tell you DOA is DOA. A good 20, 16 or 12 guage firing #6 or larger shot within 10 feet into the face of an attacker will stop the threat in a hurry! Short of the person wearing body armor under a thick leather jacket, birdshot is going to mess up some punk doper cat burglar stalkers day. If you can't afford to buy and practice with buckshot, there is nothing wrong with skeet or trap shooting to practice reload, swing, lead, fire. Self defense is a fluid situation and a person who shoots shotgun regularly is in a lot better shape to defened agaist a moving intruder than someone who just strictly shooting bullseyes on stationary targets. If you can afford buckshot great! If not, don't be scared it's not adequate for defense. Ever see the episode of Son's of guns where they made a 410 kill stick for gators shooting shot loads? A 410 is leathan when correctly employed by a confident user.
I've got a friend who is obsessed about having a 44 magnum with 300 grain buffalo bore bullets or a 450 or 500 S&W magnum to put down bear when he's in the forest! We bought a pair of identical 44 Redhawks and with full power loads are both having problems keeping a good groups at 25 paces with these big barking magnums. Mid range stuff is so much more comfortable and controllable but my friend doesn't think they are adequate for bear defense! For me a 357 mag is a better overall defensive weapon because it fits my hand better and I can hit with it to some distance and group my shots pretty well. I'd feel comfortable plinking 2 liter bottles at 50 yards with the 357. I'm not holding my breath with the 44 page 30 feet! I'll keep shooting the 44 to improve cause It's fun and challenging, but the 357 for me is a much better bullet chucker for my needs. Any handgun against a bear is a big question mark so you better be able to place your shots into the vitals.
Some of you are obsessed with shotgun power and shot size without considering the individual skill level of different shooters. First rule of self defense. Have a reliable gun you are confident to use under stress! If a person can confidently handle a 22 rifle they are better prepared to defend themself than someone who is unfamiliar with a big 12 guage firing slugs. I'd sure like to know statistically what percentage of guys shot point blank with bird shot were able to continue their attack?
Recoil is about how massive the shot load is.
Usually, larger spheres in a tube means greater empty space between the spheres and less total mass.
The 16 pellet #1 Buck loads yield a 640 grain payload while Remington’s 12 pellet #0 Buck load gives about a 580 (579.6) grain payload. Based on a 7 lb. shotgun, the Remington #0 Buck Loads generates 27.4 ft. lbs. of recoil, while the #1 Buck factory loads generate 31.8 ft. lbs of recoil. That's roughly a 15% reduction.
I'm just saying that smaller shot doesn't necesarily mean lighter recoiling.
Usually, larger spheres in a tube means greater empty space between the spheres and less total mass.
The 16 pellet #1 Buck loads yield a 640 grain payload while Remington’s 12 pellet #0 Buck load gives about a 580 (579.6) grain payload. Based on a 7 lb. shotgun, the Remington #0 Buck Loads generates 27.4 ft. lbs. of recoil, while the #1 Buck factory loads generate 31.8 ft. lbs of recoil. That's roughly a 15% reduction.
I'm just saying that smaller shot doesn't necesarily mean lighter recoiling.
Birdshot will do the job if close enough.
So will 00.
With 00, close enough is about 25 yards, give or take some.
With birdshot, close enough may be only 25 INCHES. I've seen enough forensic pics to last me a long time that show horrible,shallow wounds. Few such seem to have caused the vics to cease and desist.
When I worked in some of MD's finest sleepover camps for the morally challenged I knew one convict who was slowly starving to death. He had lost most of his intestines after a load of birdshot was inserted at contact range by a co conspirator in a drug deal gone very wrong. He killed the shooter before collapsing.
One bit of anecdotal evidence is hardly enough to indicate probabilities, but it should give one pause connected to Gel tests and real world data.
OO just plain works.....
So will 00.
With 00, close enough is about 25 yards, give or take some.
With birdshot, close enough may be only 25 INCHES. I've seen enough forensic pics to last me a long time that show horrible,shallow wounds. Few such seem to have caused the vics to cease and desist.
When I worked in some of MD's finest sleepover camps for the morally challenged I knew one convict who was slowly starving to death. He had lost most of his intestines after a load of birdshot was inserted at contact range by a co conspirator in a drug deal gone very wrong. He killed the shooter before collapsing.
One bit of anecdotal evidence is hardly enough to indicate probabilities, but it should give one pause connected to Gel tests and real world data.
OO just plain works.....
I probably should have said a bit more in my first post in this thread, but I chose it because of these following reasons:
It was the lightest pump 12 ga shotgun I could reliably find. A lot of times people look for heavier shotguns to soak up recoil, but carrying it long distances made it important to me.
I liked the location of the safety and the action release button.
The length of pull and drops at heel and comb were good for me, this is completely subjective to my body size though.
It's receiver being made of aluminum, I just figured if I ever went trouncing through dense brush after rain, or was with it in the rain, that it wouldn't be as likely to rust everywhere. Supposedly aluminum "rust" (technically called oxidation) makes it stronger. huh.
The inertia-assisted slide-action thingy making it the fastest pump action shotgun seemed kinda cool.
The tactical typed pump action grip without having to pay for the 870 tactical price and get the obnoxiously stupid end of barrel door/human poker choke.
It was also pretty cheap compared to the Mossbergs and Remington I was comparing it to.
I did go for features that would make it useful for Alaskan bear protection in the field for hikes or fishing or berry picking or whatever, but that doesn't make many of those features a liability in home defense. All I have done to it is added a sling, and the most I would ever do in the future is replace the front brass bead sight with a tritium bead. In the world of tactical style shotguns for defensive use in the field, in the home, or both, but you still like the idea of simplifying and adding lightness, I think the Winchester SXP Defender stands above the rest. If you want one with more bulk added onto it, by all means you should get something else.
I don't think these gel blocks were mixed right or at the right temperature or something because the penetration shown is deeper than other tests I've seen, but I still think it's useful to show that birdshot doesn't penetrate all that much.
These were fired for 3 yards.
#4 Bird:
#8 "Heavy Dove"
Here is #1 Buck fired from 3 yards:
Their tests show average penetration of 16.5 inches, but that seems a little higher than other tests in bare gel for #1 Buck which result in 14.5 to 15" average penetration.
.
These were fired for 3 yards.
#4 Bird:
#8 "Heavy Dove"
Here is #1 Buck fired from 3 yards:
Their tests show average penetration of 16.5 inches, but that seems a little higher than other tests in bare gel for #1 Buck which result in 14.5 to 15" average penetration.
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Here is the Firing Line poll on the subject:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454273&highlight=buck
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454273&highlight=buck
TheKlawMan
Moderator
For sake of argument, let's assume that birdshot is sufficient to stop an intuder under some conditions found in a hd scenario (the intruder is wearing a t shirt and is no more than 2 yards away when hit square in the chest). Will you concede that 00 BS is more likely to put down an intruder under more adverse conditons (for example an intruder wearing a heavy motorcyle jacket has barricaded himself behind the closed bottom half of a Kitchen dutch door)? I think one has to admit that buck shot provides better protection. If so, why would anyone use bird shot unless they had some special collateral damage issue (neighbors on the other side of a party wall)?