12 ga, 2 & 3/4" 00 buckshot or 3" 00 buckshot for sd/hd?

Yeah. Thing is...

...at 25 yards, NO shotgun choke is SUPPOSED to have as small as an 8-1/2" (notebook sheet width) pattern. Maybe that's your holy grail, but that's obviosuly out of spec for usual shotgun and shell design. And to hold them to that standard may be your personal interest but, to be fair and clear, it isn't anything else.

At 25 meters or so, I WANT the gun/choke/shell to produce the industry-standard 30" pattern.
 
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@ Lee Lapin that would be awesome if they did come out with one. I agree though stick to what patterns well. Like 00 Buck which you can get in 2 3/4 with 12pellets. Thats alot of power. At 25 yards a shotgun spread could be pretty tight cylinder bore. Not sure how tight but it would be all Torso.
 
Yeah. Thing is...

...at 25 yards, NO shotgun choke is SUPPOSED to have as small as an 8-1/2" (notebook sheet width) pattern. Maybe that's your holy grail, but that's obviosuly out of spec for usual shotgun and shell design. And to hold them to that standard may be your personal interest but, to be fair and clear, it isn't anything else.

At 25 meters or so, I WANT the gun/choke/shell to produce the industry-standard 30" pattern.

======

All hail Gehrhard, Ruler Of The World! Definer of what is SUPPOSED TO BE! :D

I don't CARE what the OLD industry standard is - the NEW industry standard is FliteControl. YOU can be a stick-in-the-mud scattergun shooter if you want, that's YOUR preference. And by the way, I'm not here to tell YOU that YOU cannot go for whatever level of performance YOU want out of YOUR shotgun and load. You are perfectly welcome to set YOUR OWN standard and do whatever it takes to achieve that standard.

Why is it that you are so intent on telling me I cannot have - and am not even supposed to WANT - a load that meets my own self defined standard for my own purposes? What is it that disqualifies me from determining what I want my shotgun and load to do? Am I not old enough? Do I not have enough experience? Do I not have enough formal training? Have I not spent enough money and experimented enough with shotguns and buckshot to be able to know what I want when I see it?

I've been shooting 00 buckshot patterns at 25 yards on 3x5" INDEX CARDS for over ten years now, with three different chokes and loads. My current choice (Federal LE127 00 in a factory Remington 18" CYL bore barrel) is a bit more open than that, it usually does 4" patterns at 25 yards. But I can live with that... :D

lpl
 
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Gehrhard,a 30" pattern will put about half the pellets OFF a human torso. Mine is about 21" wide at the shoulder and I'm a behemoth.

Lee is an old Net friend and Co-Moderator on another forum with me. He's quite knowledgeable and has spent oodles of time researching and testing.

More oodles of time have been spent by him patiently answering shotgun queries,often over and over.

And if he wants a load that will pattern inside a poker chip at 25 yards, so be it. He has his reasons....
 
Mr. Dave: I know Lee and you have probably forgotten more about shotgunning than I'll ever know.

But I was pretty clear: Lee, you are entitled to follow your dream.

But to imply #1 Buck isn't patterning well unless 100% of it is in about eight inches (8") at 25 yards is a little misleading. And this is a shotgun thread. With inexperienced shooters. On a shotgun forum. Sure, we've seen that opinion popping-up on the internet: 'a tighter pattern is better.' That is inaccurate. The correct pattern is better. If that is a tight pattern, fine. With recent options, which are downright cool, if it is essentially no pattern and that's what you want, and you can get there, more power to ya (and all of us). But we should at least explain that this is an irregular personal opinion that is antithetical to the established safe shooting sports. So is intending/expecting to hit your target with every pellet...

Here's a handy reference for the state-of-the-art at the 25 yards cited...

http://www.fieldandclays.com/expert_chokes.htm
 
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I don't know much about shotuguns or guns, but all my life I have dealt with questions about "industry standards". If you are going to argue about standards, you first must ascertain the use against which the standard is being applied. One person might desire a 30 inch pattern for shooting clays at the same distance that a LEO might want a much smaller pattern in hopes of avoiding collateral damage.

I just saw Gerhard's posting done while I was writing this and it says it all. He is talking about the standard for Clay Sports. Others are talking about taking a human out. The standards for each are very different.
 
Don't think that is the case Klaw, though they ARE subject to change and the vagueries of individuals and bureacratic administrative attorneys which is with whom the Flite-Control concept originated -- to minimize collateral damage and innocent bystander law-suits.

If a tight pattern for shooting anything other than clay targets was the norm than we'd all be choking down our guns to "Coyote" off the Trap and Skeet range. And buckshot-loaded HD guns down to whatever minimized their pattern. But as a rule, we don't. In fact, what is the ubiquitous 'security' choke? None! The exact opposite!! Open Cylinder!!!

It comes down to knowledge of what the gun will do and what that means at the ranges it will be employed, for what.

4-inch pattern now at 25 yards eh!?
 
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WOW. This is just incredible.

Think of it this way Gehrhard, the site you gave has absolutely nothing to do with what Lee Lapin is talking about WANTING to do or is doing.

Read the bottom sentence of the site you refered to. The one written by the sites author that states something to the effect of that whole thing being a very basic choke course.

What Lee's doing is far beyond what you referenced and has no bearing in what he's doing.

Also, I saw no where in Lee's posts implying to anyone that #1buck isn't patterning well unless 100% of it is about 8" @ 25yds.:rolleyes:...

...and your response to Klawmans post makes no sense what-so-ever
 
Gehrhard,

The folks at Trulock have made a real name for themselves in the shotgun choke tube business. But ya know what? Nowhere on their page did they mention shotgun vs. thug/felon/housebreaker. Waterfowl, turkeys, wingshooting, claybirds, yes.

Humans, no.

I have said before that works for a sporting shotgun in the field does not necessarily apply to a defensive shotgun - defensive shotguns are handled differently. A defensive shotgun is best carried muzzle down at low ready when quick use is anticipated. On the other hand, anyone who came up behind my Brittany when she was on point with a bird gun carried muzzle down would get sent back to the truck. In the field, you carry muzzle up. Carry a defensive shotgun muzzle up and you open up too good a possibility that an assailant could get in under the muzzle and execute a disarm.

Anyone who grabs my shotgun when it's at low ready is a split second away from getting a new nickname- STUMPY. Because the muzzle will cover the assailant's feet or lower legs, and I will pull the trigger.

By the same token, what is desirable in a pattern for game birds on the wing or for clay birds is not necessarily what is desirable for antipersonnel use. For illustration, take a look at this 2007 thread at THR with quotes from professional firearms trainer John Farnam - http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-304585.html .

See pattern pictures at http://blog.hsoi.com/2011/01/08/shotgun-ammo-trials/

There's as much more discussion of FliteControl buckshot loads on the web as you want to look for.

The stuff is 'standard' enough now that a good many LE agencies are buying it and using it in training and on patrol. ATK announced not long ago that their Speer Lawman line of buckshot will now offer a low recoil 00 FliteControl round as well ( http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/shotshell/lawmanbuckshot.aspx ). That makes three brands now that I know of using this wad - Hornady TAP, Federal LE and Premium, and now Speer Lawman.

In short, this stuff does what people who anticipate the necessity to use shotguns on people want their shotguns and buckshot to do. That's my standard.

YMMV of course.

lpl

And as to the 4" pattern at 25 yards - believe it or not. Other people/agencies report similar results with FliteControl loads. LE127 00 is cheap enough and widely available enough these days that anyone who wants can try it. Word of warning tho - it likes open choke barrels, CYL seems best for it. It's possible if not easy to overchoke buckshot.
 
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Gerhard, I am not talking about the standard for anything but clays, but pointing out that you were talking about the standard for clays and Lee is talking about an anti personnel application. I am not sure if he means law enforcement, but police armorer source adivese me that more that his customers are more frequently ordering modified chokes. Bare in mind that officers not only have need for buckshot, but also have occassion to fire slugs and special munitions with their shotguns. Otherwise, I imagine they might simply run with extra full or tighter chokes and need not carry the expensive flight control ammo. I really don't know and if I am incorrect anyone is welcome to correct me.
 
Lee said:
I have said before that works for a sporting shotgun in the field does not necessarily apply to a defensive shotgun - defensive shotguns are handled differently. A defensive shotgun is best carried muzzle down at low ready when quick use is anticipated. On the other hand, anyone who came up behind my Brittany when she was on point with a bird gun carried muzzle down would get sent back to the truck. In the field, you carry muzzle up. Carry a defensive shotgun muzzle up and you open up too good a possibility that an assailant could get in under the muzzle and execute a disarm.
Click to expand...

As a (relatively) novice shotgunner, I found this very, very helpful to know. Thank you.
 
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