115 vs 147
- Thread starter Jesse H
- Start date
juliet charley
New member
Mike -
Back when LE started switching the 9 mm, we need to remember the round of choice was the .38 Special 158-grain +P LSWCHP (not +P+ as somebody mistyped earlier). When LEOs started complaining about the loss of stopping power with 9 mm, it was this round (.38 Special +P LSWCHP)--not the .357 Magnum as the energy freaks want to believe--they were comparing it with. They may have been carrying Model 13s or 19s or Model 65s or 66s, but the chambers had .38 Special +P 158-grain LSWHPs in them. It was an excellent LE round then and a good LE round now when you consider all the variables such as recoil, muzzle flash, controllablitiy (Without rehashing Miami, it was this .38 Special load, (also know as the FBI load, Metro load, Chicago Load) that stopped Mattix (the other guy) before he got a shot and finally stopped Platt. Nobody will ever know for sure, but there is a good chance that had SA Dove been carrying standard issue Model 13 and the standard issue .38 Special +P LSWCHPs with the hit he got on Platt before the killing started both he and SA Grogan (the TWO agents killed--not five PAT) would still be alive.
The 147-grain 9 is approximately the equivalent to the old .38 Special +P LSWCHP--arguably the best general issue LE round out of revolver. It as close to an equivalent round to a revolver as you can get is a pistol (certainly closer than the vaunted 357 Sig is to the .357 Magnum). Whether you like or not, LEOs were well-armed with the .38 Special +P LSWCHP and they are well-armed with the 9 mm 147-grain JHP (coupled with any advantages the pistol has over the revolver for LE).
So when PAT compares the 147-grain 9 to the .38 Special, he is actually paying it a compliment. It was the .38 Special (again, one more time, not the .357) that made the 9 mm look bad when it was first issued to LE--back when he was still in diapers.
What trend back? The agencies that stuck with 9 evidently stuck with the 147-grain load. Winchester said they are thirteen million rounds of 147-grain Ranger T to two million rounds of 127-grain Ranger T (+P+). Six and a half to one is trend, however you are confused about the direction. Some the major LE agencies using the 147-grain loadings include San Diego PD, LA PD, LA SO and Chicago PD. (Just those agencies alone take in a significant proportion of American LE.) In fact the LA PD switched to the 147-grain load AFTER seeeing how well it was working for the LA SO (and experiences some failures to stop due to underpenetration).
Back when LE started switching the 9 mm, we need to remember the round of choice was the .38 Special 158-grain +P LSWCHP (not +P+ as somebody mistyped earlier). When LEOs started complaining about the loss of stopping power with 9 mm, it was this round (.38 Special +P LSWCHP)--not the .357 Magnum as the energy freaks want to believe--they were comparing it with. They may have been carrying Model 13s or 19s or Model 65s or 66s, but the chambers had .38 Special +P 158-grain LSWHPs in them. It was an excellent LE round then and a good LE round now when you consider all the variables such as recoil, muzzle flash, controllablitiy (Without rehashing Miami, it was this .38 Special load, (also know as the FBI load, Metro load, Chicago Load) that stopped Mattix (the other guy) before he got a shot and finally stopped Platt. Nobody will ever know for sure, but there is a good chance that had SA Dove been carrying standard issue Model 13 and the standard issue .38 Special +P LSWCHPs with the hit he got on Platt before the killing started both he and SA Grogan (the TWO agents killed--not five PAT) would still be alive.
The 147-grain 9 is approximately the equivalent to the old .38 Special +P LSWCHP--arguably the best general issue LE round out of revolver. It as close to an equivalent round to a revolver as you can get is a pistol (certainly closer than the vaunted 357 Sig is to the .357 Magnum). Whether you like or not, LEOs were well-armed with the .38 Special +P LSWCHP and they are well-armed with the 9 mm 147-grain JHP (coupled with any advantages the pistol has over the revolver for LE).
So when PAT compares the 147-grain 9 to the .38 Special, he is actually paying it a compliment. It was the .38 Special (again, one more time, not the .357) that made the 9 mm look bad when it was first issued to LE--back when he was still in diapers.
juliet charley
I am afraid your version of events and reality do not get along. The 357 mag earned a reputation as the revolver load of choice with 125 grain jhp's not with the 158 grain lhp 38. This 38 load while good was not thought of as a great round. Its acceptable like the 147 grain 9mm is. But the lighter 127 grian bullets are much better.
PAT
I am afraid your version of events and reality do not get along. The 357 mag earned a reputation as the revolver load of choice with 125 grain jhp's not with the 158 grain lhp 38. This 38 load while good was not thought of as a great round. Its acceptable like the 147 grain 9mm is. But the lighter 127 grian bullets are much better.
PAT
CastleBravo
New member
I'd be REAL careful about singing the praises of the .38 SPL LSWCHP +P load... if your read the account of the shootout carefully you discover that it took no less than 3 headshots to stop Matix! Platt took one of these vaunted rounds in the head and was totally unfazed; it took a final round through the torso and into his spine to stop him.
The on-target performance of the .38 SPL loads was nothing short of terrible.
The on-target performance of the .38 SPL loads was nothing short of terrible.
Ben Shepherd
New member
I just wonder why the agents were carrying 38spl loads instead of full power 357 loads?
I carry a 357sp101, if I wanted a 38 I would have bought one!!
As I have posted before: Always carry the hottest you can handle. (ESPECIALLY in handgun calibers) If it's my life, nothing less will do!
I carry a 357sp101, if I wanted a 38 I would have bought one!!
As I have posted before: Always carry the hottest you can handle. (ESPECIALLY in handgun calibers) If it's my life, nothing less will do!
Mike Irwin
Staff
JC,
In the early 1990s virtually every large agency that used 9mm either went to or experimented with the 147-gr. ammo.
There are few left out of the original group.
Washington, DC, with 3,000 or so officers fielded the 147 for less than 2 years before dropping it in favor of 124s.
The US Park Police also experimented with 147s when they adopted the HK P7 series, but never adopted the round due in part about questions about its effectiveness. USPP carries a Federal 9mm round, 115-gr., I believe. That's another 1,000 offices.
Fairfax County Police also looked at the 147 in the early 1990s as the Virginia State Police were doing. VSP adopted the 147 (and has since moved to the .357 Sig), Fairfax County apparently didn't like what it saw, and adopted a 124-gr. Federal Hydrashok round.
I believe that DC also currently carries a Federal round.
Winchester is only one of 3 domestic manufacturers that supply ammo; it's questionable as to whether Winchester has the lion's share of the domestic market for ammo. To be perfectly blunt, it's not a trend or a status that can be measured by looking at a single manufacturer alone.
Please go back and re-read my comments about the 9mm 147s -- much of the original experience that turned a lot of agencies off on the 147s happened with first generation bullets.
You'll note in one of my messages that I address the changes that were made to the 147s that addressed many of the original concerns.
Given that the original 147s showed, in many cases, EXTREME reluctance to expand, I disagree with your assessment that an officer armed with the 147s is as well armed as if he had the 158-gr. LSWHP +P .38 Spl. (please also note that I corrected my error in stating that this round was a +P+ round), which DID expand.
(Why do you keep stressing to me the difference between the .38 Spl. load and the .357 Mag. load? I don't think I've mentioned the .357 Mag. once in this thread.)
The early 147s showed effectiveness on par with the old 158-gr. LRN .38 Spl. police loading, which the LAPD carried for nearly 50 years.
The 147 has found a niche with some police forces. It's not nearly as widely used now as it was in the 1990s. Again, some of that is due to forces moving to other calibers, but some of it is also due to forces DROPPING the round in favor of another round.
CB,
EVERY round carried by the FBI in the Miami shootout showed some degree of "failure."
The 9mm, the .38 Spl. +P, and the 12-gauge buckshot load.
That SINGLE incident does NOT make or break a round's reputation.
Unless you're the FBI.
Ben,
FBI apparently issued the .38 Spl. round, and not .357 Mag. ammo, for continuity of supply.
FBI had always given agents quite a bit of leeway in what they could carry, prefering approved calibers, instead of approved guns.
At one point in 1994 I knew 4 agents from my work at the gunshop, all carried different makes/models.
IIRC one carried an S&W 9mm, one carried an S&W Model 13, one carried a Model 10, and a 4th (who had been with FBI since the end of the Korean War), carried a Colt Detective Special.
In the early 1990s virtually every large agency that used 9mm either went to or experimented with the 147-gr. ammo.
There are few left out of the original group.
Washington, DC, with 3,000 or so officers fielded the 147 for less than 2 years before dropping it in favor of 124s.
The US Park Police also experimented with 147s when they adopted the HK P7 series, but never adopted the round due in part about questions about its effectiveness. USPP carries a Federal 9mm round, 115-gr., I believe. That's another 1,000 offices.
Fairfax County Police also looked at the 147 in the early 1990s as the Virginia State Police were doing. VSP adopted the 147 (and has since moved to the .357 Sig), Fairfax County apparently didn't like what it saw, and adopted a 124-gr. Federal Hydrashok round.
I believe that DC also currently carries a Federal round.
Winchester is only one of 3 domestic manufacturers that supply ammo; it's questionable as to whether Winchester has the lion's share of the domestic market for ammo. To be perfectly blunt, it's not a trend or a status that can be measured by looking at a single manufacturer alone.
Please go back and re-read my comments about the 9mm 147s -- much of the original experience that turned a lot of agencies off on the 147s happened with first generation bullets.
You'll note in one of my messages that I address the changes that were made to the 147s that addressed many of the original concerns.
Given that the original 147s showed, in many cases, EXTREME reluctance to expand, I disagree with your assessment that an officer armed with the 147s is as well armed as if he had the 158-gr. LSWHP +P .38 Spl. (please also note that I corrected my error in stating that this round was a +P+ round), which DID expand.
(Why do you keep stressing to me the difference between the .38 Spl. load and the .357 Mag. load? I don't think I've mentioned the .357 Mag. once in this thread.)
The early 147s showed effectiveness on par with the old 158-gr. LRN .38 Spl. police loading, which the LAPD carried for nearly 50 years.
The 147 has found a niche with some police forces. It's not nearly as widely used now as it was in the 1990s. Again, some of that is due to forces moving to other calibers, but some of it is also due to forces DROPPING the round in favor of another round.
CB,
EVERY round carried by the FBI in the Miami shootout showed some degree of "failure."
The 9mm, the .38 Spl. +P, and the 12-gauge buckshot load.
That SINGLE incident does NOT make or break a round's reputation.
Unless you're the FBI.
Ben,
FBI apparently issued the .38 Spl. round, and not .357 Mag. ammo, for continuity of supply.
FBI had always given agents quite a bit of leeway in what they could carry, prefering approved calibers, instead of approved guns.
At one point in 1994 I knew 4 agents from my work at the gunshop, all carried different makes/models.
IIRC one carried an S&W 9mm, one carried an S&W Model 13, one carried a Model 10, and a 4th (who had been with FBI since the end of the Korean War), carried a Colt Detective Special.
juliet charley
New member
PAT -
It's not my "version of events and reality." If you go back and do some research you will find that most metropolitan PDs not only used the 158-grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP, but they were also satisfied with its performanc. It was largely in comparison to this round that LEOs found the 9 mm lacking. Sure the 125-grain .357 Magnum was out there, and it was carried a lot (particularly with various state police agencies), but it was the round of choice of most police departments. For general police work the "FBI Load" was was good, effective round, and it did made the early loadings of the 9 look badly.
Castle Bravo -
You are absolutely right in Mattix took three to the head. You are dead wrong to say it took three to the head to stop him. He took three to the head almost immediately at the beginning of the fight and never participated in the fight. Did one stop him and were the other two "icing on the cake" so to speak--we'll never know. He took three to head and was out of the fight. To say it took three to the head to stop him is a gross misrepresentation.
As to Platt taking one to the head, I believe it was out of the same string that stopped him (to be perfectly honest, he was probably already out of the fight by the time Mireles finished him). I am pretty certain from reading other posts by you that had you thought about it, you know how meaningless a head shot can be in many cases. Any round, including the .45 ACP and the 10 mm, can very easily not penetrate the skull due to its shape (curved) and its strength. Unless a round (any round) hits square or almost square, there is a good chance that it might not even phase the person shot.
Ben -
At the time of the Miami, the issue handgun/round was the S&W M13 and the 158-grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP. An agent who wanted carry the .357 Magnum and could qualify with it could carry it, but I do not believe it was the 125-grain JHP.
Mike -
To be honest, I was really not interested in the early issue 147s because he was not asking about what the early round was like, but the current issue. I probably emphasised (overemphasized?) because so many people who do not know any better still judge the 147s by those first loadings. I know that the "first generation" 147 grain rounds left a great deal of room for improvement, but the improvements have been made, and it is a very good general issue LE round now. (By the way, I wound not use the Washington DC PD as an example or anything except the results of combining Glocks with no training.)
I talked about the .357 Magnum because many people who do not know anybody just assume that all LEOs carried the 125-grain .357 Magnum JHP before the transition to autos, and that it was their experience with the .357 Magnum that made them dissatisfied with the early 9 mm when in most cases they were comparing the 9 to the .38 and not the .357 when complaining about loss of stopping power.
The 158-grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP was a very good, very effective LE round (and maybe the best for the average officer on a beat doing his 20 in that it worked very well and it was relatively easy to shoot). Sure the .357 Magnum worked better, but it was not nor is it now easy to shoot.
The modern (expanding) 147-grain is similar to the old .38 Special "FBI Load" and as such is a good round (and for the same reasons maybe the best round for the average office on patrol).
So what if some LE agencies dropped the first generation 147s for 124s. What does that have to do with current generation 147s? Other large agencies since then have dropped the 115s/124s for the new generation 147s.
The 147s are very effective, very easy to shoot and very accurate--they are hard on the target, easy on the shooter and the weapon. That makes a very good round (maybe the best of the 9s) for LEOs and non-LEOs.
It's not my "version of events and reality." If you go back and do some research you will find that most metropolitan PDs not only used the 158-grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP, but they were also satisfied with its performanc. It was largely in comparison to this round that LEOs found the 9 mm lacking. Sure the 125-grain .357 Magnum was out there, and it was carried a lot (particularly with various state police agencies), but it was the round of choice of most police departments. For general police work the "FBI Load" was was good, effective round, and it did made the early loadings of the 9 look badly.
Castle Bravo -
You are absolutely right in Mattix took three to the head. You are dead wrong to say it took three to the head to stop him. He took three to the head almost immediately at the beginning of the fight and never participated in the fight. Did one stop him and were the other two "icing on the cake" so to speak--we'll never know. He took three to head and was out of the fight. To say it took three to the head to stop him is a gross misrepresentation.
As to Platt taking one to the head, I believe it was out of the same string that stopped him (to be perfectly honest, he was probably already out of the fight by the time Mireles finished him). I am pretty certain from reading other posts by you that had you thought about it, you know how meaningless a head shot can be in many cases. Any round, including the .45 ACP and the 10 mm, can very easily not penetrate the skull due to its shape (curved) and its strength. Unless a round (any round) hits square or almost square, there is a good chance that it might not even phase the person shot.
Ben -
At the time of the Miami, the issue handgun/round was the S&W M13 and the 158-grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP. An agent who wanted carry the .357 Magnum and could qualify with it could carry it, but I do not believe it was the 125-grain JHP.
Mike -
To be honest, I was really not interested in the early issue 147s because he was not asking about what the early round was like, but the current issue. I probably emphasised (overemphasized?) because so many people who do not know any better still judge the 147s by those first loadings. I know that the "first generation" 147 grain rounds left a great deal of room for improvement, but the improvements have been made, and it is a very good general issue LE round now. (By the way, I wound not use the Washington DC PD as an example or anything except the results of combining Glocks with no training.)
I talked about the .357 Magnum because many people who do not know anybody just assume that all LEOs carried the 125-grain .357 Magnum JHP before the transition to autos, and that it was their experience with the .357 Magnum that made them dissatisfied with the early 9 mm when in most cases they were comparing the 9 to the .38 and not the .357 when complaining about loss of stopping power.
The 158-grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP was a very good, very effective LE round (and maybe the best for the average officer on a beat doing his 20 in that it worked very well and it was relatively easy to shoot). Sure the .357 Magnum worked better, but it was not nor is it now easy to shoot.
The modern (expanding) 147-grain is similar to the old .38 Special "FBI Load" and as such is a good round (and for the same reasons maybe the best round for the average office on patrol).
So what if some LE agencies dropped the first generation 147s for 124s. What does that have to do with current generation 147s? Other large agencies since then have dropped the 115s/124s for the new generation 147s.
The 147s are very effective, very easy to shoot and very accurate--they are hard on the target, easy on the shooter and the weapon. That makes a very good round (maybe the best of the 9s) for LEOs and non-LEOs.
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I get awful tired of posting on this, and as I said before, there are tons and TONS of posting here for people to read about if they do a search. There should really be a specific forum on TFL for discussing handgun bullet effectiveness.
Any load can fail. A 115gr at 1300+ FPS can fail if you hit the arm, or some other body part that is not going to produce an incapacitating wound. I think no one here will disagree on that point. The 115gr bullets at 1300+ FPS have a lot of Kinetic Energy. This is why some people suggest you use them.
A 115gr 1300+ FPS bullet that hits your bullet proof vest delivers all of its Kinetic Energy. It does not deal you any harm. Why? Because it doesn't hit any part of your body that could incapacitate you. Therefore Kinetic Energy alone, is meaningless. Thus all people here would agree that a bullet needs to penetrate correct?
The question is how far does the bullet need to penetrate to be effective? Here is where disagreement starts to arise.
Expanding a hollowpoint bullet requires a certain amount of energy. The lead must be bent out of shape (kinda like a lot of people who get into these debates
) thus we need a certain amount of the energy in the bullet to expand it. When the bullet expands, it has more resistance to moving forward than it did before. Thus the hole created by the bullet as it is crushing tissue while moving forward is bigger. This reduces penetration. Thus, a bullet with a larger expanded diameter should penetrate less than a bullet with a smaller expanded diameter. This, however is not the case with the 115gr bullets.
According to the California Highway Patrol's bare gelatin testing:
pen = penetration, RD = Retained Diameter, RW = Retained weight.
9mm Corbon +P 115 gr JHP: Vel=1367f/s; pen=10.2"; RD=0.50"; RW=70.5gr
9mm Federal 147 gr JHP (9MS): Vel=961 f/s, pen=12.3", RD=0.61" RW=147.1gr
As you can see the 147gr bullet penetrated farther, and has a larger expanded diameter than the 115gr bullet. The 115gr bullet fragmented during travel, and while in a rifle bullet this contributes to wounding, the same is not true for pistol bullets. The fragments are found along the would track (rather than outside of it).
Some people do not accept gelatin results. They prefer to rely on the "word on the street" which is often based on the opinions of gun writers who are not forced to verify their information. Since this is not the Soviet Union, or China, we will not be able to take real human beings, and test bullets on them in a scientific environment. We can however, examine bullets that have been fired into criminals after the fact. As has been mentioned in other posts, the 147's fired into real people are penetrating 13-15 inches and expanding to between .60 and .62 in humans. At least in California. Perhaps people have different bodies in California than they do elsewhere. The problem with Marshall and Sanow's OSS percentage is that there are many, many reasons why a person "stops". Many of these reasons are psychological. We cannot rely on psychological reasons, unless we can give a psychological interview to each person we think we might have to shoot one day, and determine whether they are likely to stop from a non-lethal wound. We can, however rely on a physiological causes of a person stopping. One way is to disrupt the Central Nervous system directly. The other way is to cause the person to lose enough blood that their brain is unable to function due to a lack of oxygen delivery.
So... how much penetration do you need? That depends. How big is the guy you are shooting? If he's a scrawney guy like me, and you are facing him head on, 10" is probably enough. But 14" isn't too much... because it requires 6X as much force to exit the body. This is why many bullets are found just under the skin of the victim. When you consider that your bullet ha a diameter of .60" and isn't moving that fast, it's easy to see how your elastic skin could keep it contained. Unfortunately, bullets can, and often do, do strange things. They, *gasp* don't always travel in straight lines! You might not be facing me head on! You might have to shoot through my arm (which has a rather thick bone in it). Your bullet, might not penetrate as far in the flesh as it does in gelatin! I might be, a BIG GUY, with BIG MUSCLES. Or I could be a FAT GUY with LOTS of FAT. Ever see guys like that? Ever watch those shows where they show you guys in prison? Where they are lifting weights. Ever see many skinny guys in there? Mike Coates was carrying 145gr .357Magnum Winchester Silvertips.
the 2nd pen and RD is after denim. These are the FBI tests.
.357 Mag 145 gr STHP: Vel=1166 f/s, pen=15.8", RD=0.58", pen=12.9", RD=.64"
Yet all 5 failed to penetrate deep enough.
They had a lot of Kinetic Energy, and a lot of penetration, and a large expanded diameter, but they didn't penetrate deep enough to hit a spine. This being the case, one can only say that tactics are more important than bullets, and shot placement is more important than bullet choice.
What do hunters carry? Bullets that penetrate. Why would you want anything different? Are animals any different than people physically?
The one case a person might make against the 147's is that because they penetrate deeper, there is a greater case that they will over-penetrate, and hit innocents. I have asked before, and still have found NO incident where a 9mm 147gr JHP after striking a reasonable part of the anatomy, exited the body. The FBI's rational for not worrying about over-penetration is that since they miss 85% of the time, why worry about it? Most .45ACP 230gr Hard Ball rounds fail to exit the body. The only bullet with a history of doing so is the FMJ 9mm. This is why the NYPD switched from carrying 9mm FMJ, they currently carry 124gr +P Gold Dots. They penetrate 13.4" and expand to .68" in FBI tests.
Thus while I think that well designed 124gr bullets are acceptable, and 147gr bullets are ideal, 115's don't get adequate penetration to be effective.
The compromise seems to be to go to 124gr if you are still a member of the energy school, but want adequate penetration. That being said, I prefer the performance offered by the 147gr bullets.
-Morgan
Any load can fail. A 115gr at 1300+ FPS can fail if you hit the arm, or some other body part that is not going to produce an incapacitating wound. I think no one here will disagree on that point. The 115gr bullets at 1300+ FPS have a lot of Kinetic Energy. This is why some people suggest you use them.
A 115gr 1300+ FPS bullet that hits your bullet proof vest delivers all of its Kinetic Energy. It does not deal you any harm. Why? Because it doesn't hit any part of your body that could incapacitate you. Therefore Kinetic Energy alone, is meaningless. Thus all people here would agree that a bullet needs to penetrate correct?
The question is how far does the bullet need to penetrate to be effective? Here is where disagreement starts to arise.
Expanding a hollowpoint bullet requires a certain amount of energy. The lead must be bent out of shape (kinda like a lot of people who get into these debates
) thus we need a certain amount of the energy in the bullet to expand it. When the bullet expands, it has more resistance to moving forward than it did before. Thus the hole created by the bullet as it is crushing tissue while moving forward is bigger. This reduces penetration. Thus, a bullet with a larger expanded diameter should penetrate less than a bullet with a smaller expanded diameter. This, however is not the case with the 115gr bullets. According to the California Highway Patrol's bare gelatin testing:
pen = penetration, RD = Retained Diameter, RW = Retained weight.
9mm Corbon +P 115 gr JHP: Vel=1367f/s; pen=10.2"; RD=0.50"; RW=70.5gr
9mm Federal 147 gr JHP (9MS): Vel=961 f/s, pen=12.3", RD=0.61" RW=147.1gr
As you can see the 147gr bullet penetrated farther, and has a larger expanded diameter than the 115gr bullet. The 115gr bullet fragmented during travel, and while in a rifle bullet this contributes to wounding, the same is not true for pistol bullets. The fragments are found along the would track (rather than outside of it).
Some people do not accept gelatin results. They prefer to rely on the "word on the street" which is often based on the opinions of gun writers who are not forced to verify their information. Since this is not the Soviet Union, or China, we will not be able to take real human beings, and test bullets on them in a scientific environment. We can however, examine bullets that have been fired into criminals after the fact. As has been mentioned in other posts, the 147's fired into real people are penetrating 13-15 inches and expanding to between .60 and .62 in humans. At least in California. Perhaps people have different bodies in California than they do elsewhere. The problem with Marshall and Sanow's OSS percentage is that there are many, many reasons why a person "stops". Many of these reasons are psychological. We cannot rely on psychological reasons, unless we can give a psychological interview to each person we think we might have to shoot one day, and determine whether they are likely to stop from a non-lethal wound. We can, however rely on a physiological causes of a person stopping. One way is to disrupt the Central Nervous system directly. The other way is to cause the person to lose enough blood that their brain is unable to function due to a lack of oxygen delivery.
So... how much penetration do you need? That depends. How big is the guy you are shooting? If he's a scrawney guy like me, and you are facing him head on, 10" is probably enough. But 14" isn't too much... because it requires 6X as much force to exit the body. This is why many bullets are found just under the skin of the victim. When you consider that your bullet ha a diameter of .60" and isn't moving that fast, it's easy to see how your elastic skin could keep it contained. Unfortunately, bullets can, and often do, do strange things. They, *gasp* don't always travel in straight lines! You might not be facing me head on! You might have to shoot through my arm (which has a rather thick bone in it). Your bullet, might not penetrate as far in the flesh as it does in gelatin! I might be, a BIG GUY, with BIG MUSCLES. Or I could be a FAT GUY with LOTS of FAT. Ever see guys like that? Ever watch those shows where they show you guys in prison? Where they are lifting weights. Ever see many skinny guys in there? Mike Coates was carrying 145gr .357Magnum Winchester Silvertips.
the 2nd pen and RD is after denim. These are the FBI tests.
.357 Mag 145 gr STHP: Vel=1166 f/s, pen=15.8", RD=0.58", pen=12.9", RD=.64"
Yet all 5 failed to penetrate deep enough.
They had a lot of Kinetic Energy, and a lot of penetration, and a large expanded diameter, but they didn't penetrate deep enough to hit a spine. This being the case, one can only say that tactics are more important than bullets, and shot placement is more important than bullet choice.
What do hunters carry? Bullets that penetrate. Why would you want anything different? Are animals any different than people physically?
The one case a person might make against the 147's is that because they penetrate deeper, there is a greater case that they will over-penetrate, and hit innocents. I have asked before, and still have found NO incident where a 9mm 147gr JHP after striking a reasonable part of the anatomy, exited the body. The FBI's rational for not worrying about over-penetration is that since they miss 85% of the time, why worry about it? Most .45ACP 230gr Hard Ball rounds fail to exit the body. The only bullet with a history of doing so is the FMJ 9mm. This is why the NYPD switched from carrying 9mm FMJ, they currently carry 124gr +P Gold Dots. They penetrate 13.4" and expand to .68" in FBI tests.
Thus while I think that well designed 124gr bullets are acceptable, and 147gr bullets are ideal, 115's don't get adequate penetration to be effective.
The compromise seems to be to go to 124gr if you are still a member of the energy school, but want adequate penetration. That being said, I prefer the performance offered by the 147gr bullets.
-Morgan
A 115gr 1300+ FPS bullet that hits your bullet proof vest delivers all of its Kinetic Energy. It does not deal you any harm. Why?
Actually it will hurt you and it could break ribs and all sorts of bad things. A punch to the solar phlexes can incapacitate you for a short time with no penitration.
ALso fragmenting handgun bullets do contrubite to wounding in some cases. For example quick shock loads and certain 125 grain 357 mag loads.
PAT
Actually it will hurt you and it could break ribs and all sorts of bad things. A punch to the solar phlexes can incapacitate you for a short time with no penitration.
ALso fragmenting handgun bullets do contrubite to wounding in some cases. For example quick shock loads and certain 125 grain 357 mag loads.
PAT
juliet charley
New member
PAT-
If you think you can dump x-number of light-weight, high-energy hand-gun bullets into a ballistic vest a win a fight with a determined foe win a fight you are seriously out of touch with reality. If you even believe it will slow him down (especially in your alleged occupation), you are in Never-Never Land. Sure, they may think, "Aw shucks, I've been shot," and quit--that reaction is at least as reliable as depending energy to stop aggression. One the other hand (and probably more likely in LEO confrontation), they may get really angry and think, "That son-of-a-gun shot me. I'm going to rip his head off." And while you are staring in dumbfounded amazement as your belief system crumbles before your eyes, he will remove you head.
In The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, 4th Edition, there is a picture of Chuck Taylor taking four W-W .38 Specials--LEO 110 +P+ JHP (the vaunted "Treasury Load," beloved of the energy freaks). The caption reads, "Though they caused a stinging sensation and produced some minor brusing, Taylor commented that at no was he unable to function--move, return fire, etc."
In Shooting to Live (Faibairn and Sykes) is the following in reference to an experiement they conducted firing various types of bullets at a ballistic supported by the arm alone: "The shock of the impact increased in proportion to the velocity of the bullets but in all case was negligble, the supporting arm only recoiling minutely." Bullets ranged from the 7.63 Mauser (357 Sig class velocity) to the .455 Webley/.45 ACP.
For what it's worth, in other accounts I have read tend to indicate the big, heavy rounds are felt through ballistic vests more than the light fast ones. I don't know. I don't want to find out. To assume (or even to suggest) any handgun round fired into a ballistic vest would even slow down an attacker is the height of idiocy.
Fragmenting effective? What, maybe once in a thousand, once in ten thousand if you're generous, and only then if it's deep enough. Not my kind of odds when I'm betting my life. Magsafes? --And I bet there really are a lot of cops walking the mean streets of Fairbanks in mid-winter thinking if I hit them in exactly the same place three times, THEN I will be though the outer layer of clothes...
If you think you can dump x-number of light-weight, high-energy hand-gun bullets into a ballistic vest a win a fight with a determined foe win a fight you are seriously out of touch with reality. If you even believe it will slow him down (especially in your alleged occupation), you are in Never-Never Land. Sure, they may think, "Aw shucks, I've been shot," and quit--that reaction is at least as reliable as depending energy to stop aggression. One the other hand (and probably more likely in LEO confrontation), they may get really angry and think, "That son-of-a-gun shot me. I'm going to rip his head off." And while you are staring in dumbfounded amazement as your belief system crumbles before your eyes, he will remove you head.
In The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, 4th Edition, there is a picture of Chuck Taylor taking four W-W .38 Specials--LEO 110 +P+ JHP (the vaunted "Treasury Load," beloved of the energy freaks). The caption reads, "Though they caused a stinging sensation and produced some minor brusing, Taylor commented that at no was he unable to function--move, return fire, etc."
In Shooting to Live (Faibairn and Sykes) is the following in reference to an experiement they conducted firing various types of bullets at a ballistic supported by the arm alone: "The shock of the impact increased in proportion to the velocity of the bullets but in all case was negligble, the supporting arm only recoiling minutely." Bullets ranged from the 7.63 Mauser (357 Sig class velocity) to the .455 Webley/.45 ACP.
For what it's worth, in other accounts I have read tend to indicate the big, heavy rounds are felt through ballistic vests more than the light fast ones. I don't know. I don't want to find out. To assume (or even to suggest) any handgun round fired into a ballistic vest would even slow down an attacker is the height of idiocy.
Fragmenting effective? What, maybe once in a thousand, once in ten thousand if you're generous, and only then if it's deep enough. Not my kind of odds when I'm betting my life. Magsafes? --And I bet there really are a lot of cops walking the mean streets of Fairbanks in mid-winter thinking if I hit them in exactly the same place three times, THEN I will be though the outer layer of clothes...
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revolvergeek
New member
bravo wrote "if your read the account of the shootout carefully you discover that it took no less than 3 headshots to stop Matix! Platt took one of these vaunted rounds in the head and was totally unfazed; it took a final round through the torso and into his spine to stop him. "
Hey bravo,
Where did you read this? I just read Ayoob's account of the shooting, and accodring to it Mirales fired two rounds into Platt's head and then three into Matix's as fast as he could. There is not specific reference here to a bullet cutting Platt's spine. Not trying to argue with you, but i am just curious of other accounts.
According to this book it was some of Mirales' buckshot pellets that struck Platt's head that did not stop or distract him. Mirales apperently hit both men in the upper torso and head with buckshot fired through the windshield of the cruiser they were trying to steal. Quoting Ayoob "his last three rounds of 12 pellet 00-buck smashed Platt's maxillofacial structure and also tore into the face of Matix. One pellet also entered Matix's brain."
The two biggest lessons that i see from this shootout are
1)Humans can be very determined, very tough creatures to kill when they are mad and don't want to die.
2) Always take a rifle to a gunfight if you can. That Mini-14 that is often not considered to be a 'serious" tacital weapon was a hell of a lot more effective weapon than any of the handguns used.
Hey bravo,
Where did you read this? I just read Ayoob's account of the shooting, and accodring to it Mirales fired two rounds into Platt's head and then three into Matix's as fast as he could. There is not specific reference here to a bullet cutting Platt's spine. Not trying to argue with you, but i am just curious of other accounts.
According to this book it was some of Mirales' buckshot pellets that struck Platt's head that did not stop or distract him. Mirales apperently hit both men in the upper torso and head with buckshot fired through the windshield of the cruiser they were trying to steal. Quoting Ayoob "his last three rounds of 12 pellet 00-buck smashed Platt's maxillofacial structure and also tore into the face of Matix. One pellet also entered Matix's brain."
The two biggest lessons that i see from this shootout are
1)Humans can be very determined, very tough creatures to kill when they are mad and don't want to die.
2) Always take a rifle to a gunfight if you can. That Mini-14 that is often not considered to be a 'serious" tacital weapon was a hell of a lot more effective weapon than any of the handguns used.
juliet charley
New member
PAT -
If, Lord forbid, you ever take one or two (or a magzine-full) in your ballistic vest, do you plan on dropping and playing dead? --Or taking that SOB out?
Vinatage PAT (or the "Same Old Stuff"). In the context of the thread, your post clearly implies that energy would some how be effective in stopping or slowing or deterring the attacker (or at least be of some use). Now when you are called on it, all of sudden it's "that's not what I meant." So, what good would your energy be if it "hurt and injure[d], royally pissed off your attacker, and he takes your head off?
And now the real PAT shows with most juvenile, childish, asinine, and meaningless statement in any "stopping power" discussion. When all else fails, and your argument holds no water, offer to shoot whoever disagrees withs you with your pet round. It's past time to grow-up PAT.
If, Lord forbid, you ever take one or two (or a magzine-full) in your ballistic vest, do you plan on dropping and playing dead? --Or taking that SOB out?
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I've enjoyed reading the thread--this has been an excellent give and take to date.
I'm not a LEO.
I'm just a guy.
I'm just a guy who believes that IF I'm going to be put in a position to have to hit a bear with a baseball bat, I want to hit him with the biggest bat that I can swing.
Maybe it's not a scientific process. Maybe it's not an opinion that has it's basis in an exploration of either anecdotal evidence or gelatin results. Maybe it's not worth the effort to type it.
But...
IF I'm going to be put in a position where I have to defend myself with a 9mm, my gun is going to have the biggest 9mm bullet in it that I can put there.
I keep my magazines loaded with Federal Classic 147gr JHP's.
It's the biggest baseball bat I could find for the caliber.
Opinions are worth what you pay for them...
I'm not a LEO.
I'm just a guy.
I'm just a guy who believes that IF I'm going to be put in a position to have to hit a bear with a baseball bat, I want to hit him with the biggest bat that I can swing.
Maybe it's not a scientific process. Maybe it's not an opinion that has it's basis in an exploration of either anecdotal evidence or gelatin results. Maybe it's not worth the effort to type it.
But...
IF I'm going to be put in a position where I have to defend myself with a 9mm, my gun is going to have the biggest 9mm bullet in it that I can put there.
I keep my magazines loaded with Federal Classic 147gr JHP's.
It's the biggest baseball bat I could find for the caliber.
Opinions are worth what you pay for them...
juliet charley
With any due respect I am not the one who resported to childish tactics like name calling. Please keep your posts professional and without personal attacks and keep your own advice about growing up. You ASSumed some things from my post that were not true. When called on it you start leveling personal attacks. Its time for you to do some self reflecting and learn to tolerate others views. I don't expect you to agree or even accept other views but I do expect tolerance. I would rather not have this thread degenerate into name calling which has often been your practice in the past.
PAT
With any due respect I am not the one who resported to childish tactics like name calling. Please keep your posts professional and without personal attacks and keep your own advice about growing up. You ASSumed some things from my post that were not true. When called on it you start leveling personal attacks. Its time for you to do some self reflecting and learn to tolerate others views. I don't expect you to agree or even accept other views but I do expect tolerance. I would rather not have this thread degenerate into name calling which has often been your practice in the past.
PAT
Well shoot, this sure got a little ugly. JC, he DID offer you the use of his Level 2 vest. It's not one of those, stand in front and take a few rounds, it's stand in front and take a few rounds with my level 2 vest. I've seen videos of people shooting themselves at point blank with .44 Magnums, and walking away from it. Yes you might have a broken bone or two with a level 2 vest, and yes it will hurt, but it will not incapacitate.
355SigFan brings up some good points though. That a punch to the solar plexus will incapacitate for a time without penetrating, and the issue of quick-shocks, and fragmenting very high velocity loads.
Regarding a punch to the "solar plexus" i will refer you here:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm
****************************************
Differential Pressure Across Diaphragm Muscle: The Mechanism Responsible for Sensations of Intense Internal Pressure and Pain Caused by Blow to "Solar Plexus"
Almost everyone has, at one time or another in his life, "had the wind knocked of him", either by a blow to the torso or by a sudden and unexpected fall.
Blunt trauma to the "solar plexus", a large network of sympathetic nerves and ganglia located in the peritoneal cavity behind the stomach and having tracts that supply nerves to the abdominal viscera, is frequently cited by persons who have no medical knowledge about the cause of this discomfort.
Blunt trauma to the abdomen or the thorax can cause a significant differential pressure across the diaphragm, which is the muscle that separates the abdominal cavity from the thoracic cavity. The differential pressure stretches and strains the diaphragm, and can cause the diaphragm muscle to involuntarily spasm and contract painfully. The painful muscle cramp, which is essentially a "charley horse" of the diaphragm, is what prevents a person from catching his breath in the moments immediately after the blow is received.
A violent and forceful blow to a relaxed abdomen often produces a feeling of intense internal pressure as the contents of the abdominal cavity are suddenly displaced across the diaphragm muscle and into the thoracic cavity.
These deleterious effects can be decreased substantially by flexing the muscles of the abdomen before and when the blow is landed.
A person's mindset is key as to whether or not he's temporarily incapacitated by this mechanism. Having "the wind knocked out of you", while painful indeed, is not a physiological incapacitation mechanism. Rather, its effects are psychological in nature, borne out of physical pain and discomfort. Most people are quite capable of performing willful activity during the period in which they've lost their breath. What these people choose to do, lie down, stand with their hands on their knees, walk around, shoot back, etc., is entirely their choice.
This mechanism is often cited as "proof" of the alleged incapacitating physiological effects of energy transfer and temporary cavity. However, while there is physiology involved the incapacitating effect is almost entirely psychological, and psychological reaction to being shot is erratic, unreliable and dependent on the mental state of the person who is shot. Drugs, alcohol, resolve combined with an acceptance of the risk of being shot, and psychosis are factors that decrease the chances of inflicting a debilitating psychological reaction.
When all else fails, a bullet must damage vitals that are critical to an attacker's immediate survival to produce reliable rapid incapacitation.
**************************************************
Hence the key issue is that a punch to the abdomen CAN incapacitate, but it will not do so with any sort of guarantee. Guaranteed incapacitation comes only with a bullet striking and destroying the proper part of the anatomy. A quick-shock bullet might destroy more tissue, but the issue is will it destroy the tissue it needs to destroy. There is an awful lot of human anatomy that can be struck by a bullet and yield no effective results. Most of the parts of the anatomy that will are buried deep in the body, and protected by various parts of the body, like bones. The brain is a notoriously difficult part of the body to hit with a bullet. The neck is very mobile, and there are many parts of the human head that can be hit without damaging the brain. The spinal cord, is buried at the end of the body, and is protected by bones all the way around. Thus, we are asking a bullet that enters the front of the body to pass through ribs, then tissue, and then have enough energy to penetrate the bone protecting the spine, and have enough energy left over to be able to do damage to that spine. That's a LOT of penetration.
Bullets don't always travel in straight lines in the body, and they don't always reach the same depth in gelatin as they do in flesh for a variety of reasons. A bullet that penetrates 10" can penetrate 12", or 3" or any number in between. Bullets are not energy delivery devices, they are hole making devices. The advantage a gun gives are that it can be used at range, and by almost anyone. It is not a phaser. Don't mistake it for one. Hitting the right part of the body is far more important than anything else. A bear can be taken with a small bullet in the correct part of the anatomy, but it doesn't matter if your bullet hits its mark if it can't penetrate through the bear's skull.
-Morgan
355SigFan brings up some good points though. That a punch to the solar plexus will incapacitate for a time without penetrating, and the issue of quick-shocks, and fragmenting very high velocity loads.
Regarding a punch to the "solar plexus" i will refer you here:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm
****************************************
Differential Pressure Across Diaphragm Muscle: The Mechanism Responsible for Sensations of Intense Internal Pressure and Pain Caused by Blow to "Solar Plexus"
Almost everyone has, at one time or another in his life, "had the wind knocked of him", either by a blow to the torso or by a sudden and unexpected fall.
Blunt trauma to the "solar plexus", a large network of sympathetic nerves and ganglia located in the peritoneal cavity behind the stomach and having tracts that supply nerves to the abdominal viscera, is frequently cited by persons who have no medical knowledge about the cause of this discomfort.
Blunt trauma to the abdomen or the thorax can cause a significant differential pressure across the diaphragm, which is the muscle that separates the abdominal cavity from the thoracic cavity. The differential pressure stretches and strains the diaphragm, and can cause the diaphragm muscle to involuntarily spasm and contract painfully. The painful muscle cramp, which is essentially a "charley horse" of the diaphragm, is what prevents a person from catching his breath in the moments immediately after the blow is received.
A violent and forceful blow to a relaxed abdomen often produces a feeling of intense internal pressure as the contents of the abdominal cavity are suddenly displaced across the diaphragm muscle and into the thoracic cavity.
These deleterious effects can be decreased substantially by flexing the muscles of the abdomen before and when the blow is landed.
A person's mindset is key as to whether or not he's temporarily incapacitated by this mechanism. Having "the wind knocked out of you", while painful indeed, is not a physiological incapacitation mechanism. Rather, its effects are psychological in nature, borne out of physical pain and discomfort. Most people are quite capable of performing willful activity during the period in which they've lost their breath. What these people choose to do, lie down, stand with their hands on their knees, walk around, shoot back, etc., is entirely their choice.
This mechanism is often cited as "proof" of the alleged incapacitating physiological effects of energy transfer and temporary cavity. However, while there is physiology involved the incapacitating effect is almost entirely psychological, and psychological reaction to being shot is erratic, unreliable and dependent on the mental state of the person who is shot. Drugs, alcohol, resolve combined with an acceptance of the risk of being shot, and psychosis are factors that decrease the chances of inflicting a debilitating psychological reaction.
When all else fails, a bullet must damage vitals that are critical to an attacker's immediate survival to produce reliable rapid incapacitation.
**************************************************
Hence the key issue is that a punch to the abdomen CAN incapacitate, but it will not do so with any sort of guarantee. Guaranteed incapacitation comes only with a bullet striking and destroying the proper part of the anatomy. A quick-shock bullet might destroy more tissue, but the issue is will it destroy the tissue it needs to destroy. There is an awful lot of human anatomy that can be struck by a bullet and yield no effective results. Most of the parts of the anatomy that will are buried deep in the body, and protected by various parts of the body, like bones. The brain is a notoriously difficult part of the body to hit with a bullet. The neck is very mobile, and there are many parts of the human head that can be hit without damaging the brain. The spinal cord, is buried at the end of the body, and is protected by bones all the way around. Thus, we are asking a bullet that enters the front of the body to pass through ribs, then tissue, and then have enough energy to penetrate the bone protecting the spine, and have enough energy left over to be able to do damage to that spine. That's a LOT of penetration.
Bullets don't always travel in straight lines in the body, and they don't always reach the same depth in gelatin as they do in flesh for a variety of reasons. A bullet that penetrates 10" can penetrate 12", or 3" or any number in between. Bullets are not energy delivery devices, they are hole making devices. The advantage a gun gives are that it can be used at range, and by almost anyone. It is not a phaser. Don't mistake it for one. Hitting the right part of the body is far more important than anything else. A bear can be taken with a small bullet in the correct part of the anatomy, but it doesn't matter if your bullet hits its mark if it can't penetrate through the bear's skull.
-Morgan
juliet charley
New member
Yes, CaesarI it got ugly.
To be honest, I wouldn't be too worried about taking a couple 9 mm 115-grain JHP to a good ballistic vest level 2 vest, but that doesn't mean I'd voluntee. (Momma didn't raise no fools so to speak.) I wouldn't even be really worried about a cracked rib (assuming the guy shooting to could shoot).
I went back and read my post and see where I responded to the substance of PAT's post point-by-point. I did not see where I resorted to name-calling or made any PERSONAL attacks (though I did call a childish and foolish point childish and foolish), and I didn't attempt to use any covert profanity. I still do not see where interpreting a remark within the context of which it was made as assuming anything (except maybe the author knew what he said). What I do see is a smokescreen to avoid having to attempt to make any substantive response. I guess if my post was out of line or violated forum rules a moderator will let me know.
I would add to your remarks concerning the solar plexus that a ballistic vest would probably spread the shock out over too wide an area for it to be effective (particularly with 115 grainers the thread is about), and that if you hit the solar plexus, you are probably hitting three of four inches below where you should be hitting (the thoracic cavity)--and I cannot imagine anyone aiming for the solar plexus on purpose so the best you can hope for is an accidental hit. (I think if I shot somebody twice, and he didn't stop I switch real quick to the pelvic region or the region centered on and just above the eyes rather than try to find solar plexus, but to each their own.) I freely acknowledge I may be off a little bit in my anatomy--it has been a long time since any martial arts classes and it has been a long day.
To be honest, I wouldn't be too worried about taking a couple 9 mm 115-grain JHP to a good ballistic vest level 2 vest, but that doesn't mean I'd voluntee. (Momma didn't raise no fools so to speak.) I wouldn't even be really worried about a cracked rib (assuming the guy shooting to could shoot).
I went back and read my post and see where I responded to the substance of PAT's post point-by-point. I did not see where I resorted to name-calling or made any PERSONAL attacks (though I did call a childish and foolish point childish and foolish), and I didn't attempt to use any covert profanity. I still do not see where interpreting a remark within the context of which it was made as assuming anything (except maybe the author knew what he said). What I do see is a smokescreen to avoid having to attempt to make any substantive response. I guess if my post was out of line or violated forum rules a moderator will let me know.
I would add to your remarks concerning the solar plexus that a ballistic vest would probably spread the shock out over too wide an area for it to be effective (particularly with 115 grainers the thread is about), and that if you hit the solar plexus, you are probably hitting three of four inches below where you should be hitting (the thoracic cavity)--and I cannot imagine anyone aiming for the solar plexus on purpose so the best you can hope for is an accidental hit. (I think if I shot somebody twice, and he didn't stop I switch real quick to the pelvic region or the region centered on and just above the eyes rather than try to find solar plexus, but to each their own.) I freely acknowledge I may be off a little bit in my anatomy--it has been a long time since any martial arts classes and it has been a long day.
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revolvergeek
New member
Bet that the .357 Sig could do interesting things with that 147 Gold Dot bullet. Say maybe 1175-1200 fps? Bet it would end up expanding and looking like a quarter!!