115 vs 147

J

Jesse H

New member
Bored at work so I got curious...what's the point for 9mm in 147gr if the 115gr outperforms it?

I'm probably totally ignorant on this subject, but here's what I grabbed from Winchester's website on their Silvertips...

115gr Silvertip Hollowpoint:
1225fps, 383 ft/lbs

147gr Silvertip Hollowpiont:
1010fps, 333 ft/lbs

I've found similar information on Corbon's webpage. What's the point of the heavier bullet if it doesn't perform as well? Unless I'm missing something here...the only thing I can think of is this...

Getting hit by a bus at 50 mph will hurt more than getting hit by a tennis ball at 100 mph. Yeah, that's an extreme example, but it seems like with the 115gr(tennis ball) vs 147 gr(bus), it looks like the tennis ball still packs more energy?

*scratching head*
 
if everyone knew and agreed opon what was the best, most powerful handgun round then there'd only be that one load that everyone would buy. however everyone has their own opinions on balistics and that's why there are so many choices of handgun rounds out there. the 115gr was the original grain for 9mm pistols. it performs well and expands a lot but does not penetrate all that much. because of its faster speed the hollow-point opens up faster therefore stops sooner. the 147gr 9mm was then invented for those that prefer a slower bullet that will expand less rapidly and penetrate deeper. also there are 124gr 9mm rounds that are inbetween the velocity of a 115gr and 147gr 9mm.
 
The 147-gr. actually started out life for use by the military in suppressed submachine guns.

It was subsonic, which is good for suppressed use, and showed a lot of promise for head shots.

Unfortunatly, a number of police forces apparently saw that the military was using the round for a VERY specialized application, and made the leap of faith that if it was good enough for the military, it would be the be-all, end-all round for street use.

Wrong answer to a question that was never really asked.

From what I understand, the 147 compiled a generally poor to abysmal record in actual usage, and a lot of the users who adopted it have either now gone back to 115 or 124-gr. 9mm loads, or have simply gone to other calibers altogether.
 
Corrections

Well here we go again...

- The original 9mm bullet weight was 124gr (well ~123 if you wanna be picky)

- The 147's were adopted NOT because the military adopted them but because the FBI adopted them after the infamous 1986 Miami incident, in which:

"Two FBI agents were killed and five wounded in Miami during a confrontation with robbery suspects at approximately 9:45 a.m. on April 11. Prior to the shootings, the Agents, along with officers of the Metro-Dade Police Department, were conducting a mobile surveillance, attempting to locate two males believed to have committed a number of violent bank and armored car robberies. Observing a vehicle matching the description of one that had been stolen and used in previous robberies, an attempt was made to stop the car. When the Agents in three FBI vehicles subsequently forced the suspects? vehicle to a halt, two males, aged 32 and 34, emerged firing weapons. They used a 12-gauge shotgun with a modified pistol grip stock equipped to fire eight rounds; a .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle with 30 round magazine; and two .357-caliber handguns. The resultant gun battle left the two assailants and two Agents dead, as well as five Agents wounded. The victim Agents, both killed by rifle fire, were 53 and 30 years of age with 24 and 3 years of service, respectively. Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, 1986. United States Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports, Washington, D.C., 1986, p. 27."

The infamous 115gr Silvertip, according to this study would have incapacitated Platt had it penetrated further (reaching his heart).

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

The FBI after extensive testing, chose the 147gr Federal Hydrashock. They also changed to the 10mm (but those still carrying 9's carried 147gr bullets). For whatever reason, they switched from the mighty 10, to the .40 S&W, and hence the 10 is expensive, and the .40 is less expensive.

- Many Police agencies still using 9mm are moving towards 147's and away from 115's. NYPD, uses the 124gr +P Gold Dot, a rather deep penetrating 124gr bullet. Others are using the 115's still.

- The US Military DID do testing on ammo for their 9mm's. When choosing ammo for their HANDGUN, specifically, the M11, they chose the 147gr Federal (not Hi-Shock) and as far as I know they are still using it.

- Many people talk about the 147's having an abysmal record, but I personally have yet to see one instance in which anyone has proven that had 115gr 1300fps bullets hit the same locations as these poor stopping 147's, they would have somehow made a difference. I have, however seen where a deeper penetrating bullet (regardless of weight) would have made the difference, where a less penetrating bullet did not.

- Other people say (and they will in a minute) that 147's do not expand. They move too slow. So if a 1000fps 147gr 9mm can't expand, how is an 850fps 230gr .45 expanding? Obviously expansion is based not entirely on velocity, but on velocity and bullet DESIGN.

- I have yet to hear of a single case where a 147gr HP hit a person, and continued to pass through (given that the bullet hits a reasonable location, and NOT a hand etc.) I'd be interested in hearing about it.

- Kinetic energy (especially 50 ft-lbs) has little to nothing to do with the ability to stop a person from doing you harm. A knife to your throat works just as well. A 700 ft-lb 10mm to your belly will not incapacitate you. A .22 to your head (presuming it penetrates) will. All handguns are underpowered, how many ft-lbs of KE does a Shotgun have? Thousands, and we're debating about a hundred or so ft-lbs?

-Corbon doesn't carry 147's last time I checked. They used to, and it went 1100 fps if I recall. GeorgiaArms has an advertised 1050fps 147gr Gold Dot.


In short, you must first define "performs" before you can say the 115 out-performs the 147. If all you want is Kinetic Energy, and wish to discard the information the FBI, and others have gathered, be my guest.

Additionally, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and others. Do a search, there's a "mountain of knowledge there my boy, a mountain of knowledge".

-Morgan
 
The silver tip load was not the reason 5 agents died. It was a bad situation. thier are more documented failures to stop with the heavy 147 grain bullets than their are with anyother weight jhp in this caliber. The newer ones are better and they do about as well as a good 38 special load. The best loads overall are the +p+ 124 to 127 grain loads. The 147 grain loads work ok in suppressed guns but thats it.
PAT
 
Cesar,

FBI's decision to adopt the 147-gr. bullet as an interim step(which I included in "police force") was indeed driven by military experience with the round, not just FBI's experience in Miami, based on the bullet meeting FBI's penetration criteria. It was seen to be a quick, and interim, answer.

At the time that the FBI adopted the 147, though, at least two large police departments had adopted the 147 (I think Speer was the only manufacturer at the time) based LARGELY on its military usage.

The fact that FBI adopted the roun only added fuel to the growing fire, with numerous police forces rapidly adopting the round simply because they had a 147-gr. bullet.

The first generation of 147s generally showed little to no expansion in just about every shooting in which they were involved. Later revisions to the rounds made adequate expansion with penetration a much surer thing.

Many police agencies may be moving toward the 147, but according to what I've heard, many more have either moved BACK to the 115/124, or have simply moved away from the 9mm.

Faifax County Police moved away from the 147 back to a 124, and has since started rearming with .40s, I believe.

Virginia State Police, one of the first large agencies to adopt the 147, has since dropped the 9mm totally in favor of the .357 Sig with a 125-gr. bullet.

Regarding penetariont, quite frankly, I'm MORE than willing to accept through-and-through penetration rather than under penetration.
 
I just happened upon this thread after recently reading the following from a post on John Farnam's site: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2Oct00.html

"I'm here at the IALEFI (International Association of Law Enforcement firearms Instructors) Convention in Tampa, FL. Both the Remington and Federal ammo reps indicated that the most popular 9mm loading is now the 125gr, eclipsing the 115gr. The 147gr is now all but a dead issue. Only a few hold outs still use it."
 
Um I beg to differ. The 148 gr Hydra shock was adopted to replace the 38 +p lead ,loads that were in the 357 revolvers used by the pursuing agents. This was because the loads the agents had would not penetrate the body of the CAR, not the bad guys. Recall that the last shots were fired Point blank from snub nosed 38+p at point blank, and several of the shots still weren't fatal.

The 9mm 115 gr silvertip was one of the few 'fatal" bullets fired, it just took the guy a while to die. The shot was also fired from (relatively) long range, (45-50 feet across the street) and yes many depts swithed to a heavier 9mm load because 'what if" the bullet had gone a 1/2 inch farther.

The Miamai shoot out is a good example of "fatal injury vs stopping power". Both bad guys were going to die, they just didn't know it yet. And ALL of the shots fired by the bad guys were fired by ONE guy.

I still like the 115 gr silver tip. I also like the 115 gr PMC starfire.
 
Rob,

IIRC, Mirales ended the Miami Shootout with a .38 Spl. +P+ Winchester 158-gr. LSWCHP, an up-loaded variant of the Super-X .38 +P.

I've seen two different accounts of what gun he was using, either a 2.5" Model 19, or a 3" Model 13. Both were FBI approved at the time.

That load was a standard issue FBI-load for many years, and was issued by a lot of police forces nationally before the mad rush to semi-autos began.

Virginia State Police issued that round up until a few years ago to the few troopers who still carried revolvers.

I managed to finagle several boxes from a retiring trooper, who carried them in his Model 66 duty gun as well as in his 2" Model 12 off-duty gun.

Looks like Winchester no longer catalogs it.
 
"Street performance" aside, case capacity does come into play when discussing muzzle energy. All cartridges have certain ideal bullet weights that make the most of case capacity and barrel length. That is why .308 isn't far behind 30'06 for 150 to 170 grain bullets but starts to really suck at 180 and above. Muzzle energy is essentially a velocity per weight kind of ratio. One of the most popular .357 defence loads is the 125 grain load. The +P 125 9mm loads come close to duplicating those .357 velocities. But no 147 grain 9mm load is going to come close to the same in a .357. The 9mm case is small and the big bullets take up considerable powder (and pressure) capacity, using the round less effeciently. I would be a little surprised if the lower energy round was ON AVERAGE more effective. Seems like a 115 grain bullet that fails to open like 147's do would penetrate about the same or better. I guess you could alternate jhp and fmj in the mag, or accept the limitation in favor of 9mm's many excellent attributes. The hi-vel tri fragmenting route may be a solution as well.
 
This has been a decent debate. Does anyone know if any manufacturer has used 147 gr. bullet in the .357 Sig? That may yield some interesting data.
 
tlhelmer - Hornady loads it in a 147, I believe. I don't know if it was designed for higher velocity of the 357 SIG, or is the regular 9 mm bullet, tho.
 
In The Ayoob Files, Ayoob says that Agent Mirales was using a S&W 686 4" that was his personally owned gun full of 158 +p LHPSWC Winchester ammo. These shots were perfectly fatal and ended the fight; preventing the escape of the two already mortally wounded BGs. Before drawing his revolver and killing the BGs Mirales fired multiple rounds of buckshot out of his shotgun, pumping and firing one handed.

Based on most accounts of this shootout it was a tactical failure, more than an ammuntion failure. One agent lost his glasses and was not able to return any type of effective fire. Another lost his service pistol and had no backup and spent a great deal of the fight looking for a weapon. Shotguns and bodyarmor were in the trunks or back seats of several of the agents vehicles.

They all fought bravely with the resources that they had at hand, but probably should have been better prepared. It is truly a heartbreaking story to read.
 
Jesse,

One point not yet mentioned, is the difference in point of impact (POI) with different weight bullets.

I bought a 9mm revolver with fixed sights, and found that it shoots 3 or 4 inches low with 115gr bullets. :(

I tried several heavier bullets in my reloads, from 124gr to 147gr, and found that the 147gr bullets shot exactly to point of aim. :D

Of course, you can also taylor the POI of an autoloader, just by changing bullet weight.

Bill
 
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Nothing like a good caliber/weight bullett design debate to spice things up, huh?

SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT, AND SHOT PLACEMENT...

That's what counts!

R6
 
The following was just post over on GlockTalk (talking to Winchester):
Another thing I forgot was the amount of ammo sold. He [Winchester representative] stated that they sold over 15,000,000 rounds of the 147 Talon compared to 2,000,000 rounds of the 127. He stated hands down more department use the 147's. I know for a fact that more departments use the 180 40's than any other round also.
Click to expand...
1. The 147's are expanding to plus .60 and penetrating 12 to 14 inches. It doesn't get much better.

2. I don't think even the most fanatic energy freak would get excited over 50 ft/lbs.

3. The trend in LE is not "back" to the 124s but to the .40 S&W (even when they are satisfied with the 9's performance)
 
CIVILIAN vs L.E.

Different operating environment; I'll stick to 115g's in the 9, 135g's in the .400", and 230g (?) in the 45.

But I love my 180g Gold Dot 41AE load. Hmmmm.............
 
JC,

The "trend back" to 124s happened 10 years ago, BEFORE the .40 really took hold with police consciousness.

Numerous agencies adopted 147s, then went back to 115s or 124s as it became apparent that early 147s weren't much better than a 158-gr. round nose out of a .38 Spl.
 
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