10mm vs .40 rounds

[TunnelRat]

In the middle of shooting, this is a long jam and can cause your life.

That's assuming you're firing the pistol in a defensive situation. A number of people might shoot 40SW in a 10mm pistol simply to save money. If you're just shooting at the range a difficult stoppage like a stuck case or cartridge is annoying, but it's not life threatening.

Regarding to shooting .40 in 10mm revolvers, here is an article:
https://revolverguy.com/psa-40-sw-in-the-10mm-gp100/
Sounds like you need a moon clip for that and still not very good.

I get what your point, but my experience is that many people that shoot non-rimmed cartridges in revolvers are using moon clips anyway to speed ejection. It's true you wouldn't have to do that when shooting 10mm specifically, but I feel like many people using such revolvers are using moon clips anyway.

For home defense, I rather want a slower velocity rounds like 45. It's not as dangerous in going through walls.

Anything that has enough energy to penetrate deep enough into a human body to cause a fatal wound has enough energy to make light work of sheetrock. Now if the walls in your home are significantly sturdier than that or the bullet strikes some framing that might be a different story, but sheetrock is very little of a barrier for most cartridges. You may get some deflection, which could be good or bad depending on the situation. The standard safety rule of being aware of your target and what is behind it is very relevant for a shooting in a dwelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8az24QNvVk
45 ACP JHP goes through 17, 17, and 16 sheets of drywall stacked together with loadings from 3 different manufacturers (185 gr Remington Golden Saber, 185 gr Hornady Critical Defense, and 230 gr Gold Dot respectively).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-lkZ9hkSro
45 ACP JHP goes through 3 sheets of drywall spaced far apart (3 was the total number of sheets used).

 

[wild cat mccane]

Here is a person saying the 40 is most safely fired in a 10mm Glock 20. Mentions with all the talk of 40 in 10mm, it forgets 10mm isn't properly head spaced in the Glock 20 either. Also mentions commercial 10mm was never hot after 40 was introduced, if it actually ever was.

Disagree with his comment that since extractors don't break, there isn't an issue (bad logic). Disagree with the analogy that 38 bullet jumps to rifling in a revolver and is similar in .40 to 10mm (revolver has a forcing cone). Etc. Interesting read though.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/40-in-a-10mm-glock/

 

[Forte S+W]

Okay, here's a valid question that nobody has asked yet...

Regardless of whether or not it is safe to shoot .40 S&W out of a 10mm Pistol, regardless of whether or not it will damage the extractor, why not just buy a proper .40 S&W Pistol instead? Seriously, even now they're available at extremely low prices since they're no longer in high demand, and if you plan on shooting a high volume of .40 S&W ammo, much less using it for self-defense, then it makes far more sense to just buy a cheap pistol that was actually designed to shoot .40 S&W than it does to shoot it out of a 10mm Pistol and hope that it isn't wearing out the extractor at an accelerated rate.

Really now, you're arguing over whether or not it's harmful to shoot a cartridge out of a firearm that it wasn't designed to be fired from in the first place, when there are cheap and relatively plentiful pistols that are actually designed to fire it, which are also smaller, lighter, and easier to carry.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Or CA compliant conversion barrel.

 

[Alan0354]

Okay, here's a valid question that nobody has asked yet...

Regardless of whether or not it is safe to shoot .40 S&W out of a 10mm Pistol, regardless of whether or not it will damage the extractor, why not just buy a proper .40 S&W Pistol instead? Seriously, even now they're available at extremely low prices since they're no longer in high demand, and if you plan on shooting a high volume of .40 S&W ammo, much less using it for self-defense, then it makes far more sense to just buy a cheap pistol that was actually designed to shoot .40 S&W than it does to shoot it out of a 10mm Pistol and hope that it isn't wearing out the extractor at an accelerated rate.

Really now, you're arguing over whether or not it's harmful to shoot a cartridge out of a firearm that it wasn't designed to be fired from in the first place, when there are cheap and relatively plentiful pistols that are actually designed to fire it, which are also smaller, lighter, and easier to carry.

Now this is the best question here so far. I was responding to the posts, deep down in me kept saying I would NEVER do that. Why?!!!

Like you said, if I want to shoot .40 and want .40 for self defense at home, why do I want to buy a 10mm gun? It's just that simple. Why make life more complicated? Other than shooting 38 in 357, I would never do that.

 

[Alan0354]

That's assuming you're firing the pistol in a defensive situation. A number of people might shoot 40SW in a 10mm pistol simply to save money. If you're just shooting at the range a difficult stoppage like a stuck case or cartridge is annoying, but it's not life threatening.

I get what your point, but my experience is that many people that shoot non-rimmed cartridges in revolvers are using moon clips anyway to speed ejection. It's true you wouldn't have to do that when shooting 10mm specifically, but I feel like many people using such revolvers are using moon clips anyway.

Anything that has enough energy to penetrate deep enough into a human body to cause a fatal wound has enough energy to make light work of sheetrock. Now if the walls in your home are significantly sturdier than that or the bullet strikes some framing that might be a different story, but sheetrock is very little of a barrier for most cartridges. You may get some deflection, which could be good or bad depending on the situation. The standard safety rule of being aware of your target and what is behind it is very relevant for a shooting in a dwelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8az24QNvVk
45 ACP JHP goes through 17, 17, and 16 sheets of drywall stacked together with loadings from 3 different manufacturers (185 gr Remington Golden Saber, 185 gr Hornady Critical Defense, and 230 gr Gold Dot respectively).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-lkZ9hkSro
45 ACP JHP goes through 3 sheets of drywall spaced far apart (3 was the total number of sheets used).

I am not worry about accidentally hurting people in the house, I am more worry about going through my house and go into neighbor's house and hurt someone there. The outer wall is a lot stronger than sheetrock.

It's all relative in how many walls the bullet penetrates. I just choose the rounds that have enough stopping power, but penetrate the minimum number of walls. I read it's a big difference between JHP vs FMJ, so JHP is a MUST for home. I am sure 357 goes through a whole lot more walls than 45. 45 is big, so it is more "blunt", it do more hitting than penetrating.

I am not an expert on ballistics, from what I read, .40 and 9mm is close in velocity, but .40 has a bigger surface area, so .40 is better in stopping and not much worst than 9mm in penetration. 10mm and 357 is totally out of the question for me for home defense. I don't do hunting, I don't enjoy killing animals unless I have to feed myself. So I have no need for really powerful rounds. Never even dawn on me to buy a 44 magnum, neither a 10mm.

I have a 20 gauge shotgun in the bedroom also, that would be the safest, but it's big even though I have 18" barrel and pistol grip.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Tests show you have no more concern with 10mm than any other round.

Again, don't worry about Muzzle Energy and Muzzle Velocity. These two measures are not proving to dive deeper in test mediums.

The similarities between 357 sig, 357mag, 9mm, 45, 40 rounds show the concern is equal with likely more variation between individual loads, not actual caliber.

Don't know why this is controversial.

 

[TunnelRat]

I am not worry about accidentally hurting people in the house, I am more worry about going through my house and go into neighbor's house and hurt someone there. The outer wall is a lot stronger than sheetrock.

It's all relative in how many walls the bullet penetrates. I just choose the rounds that have enough stopping power, but penetrate the minimum number of walls. I read it's a big difference between JHP vs FMJ, so JHP is a MUST for home. I am sure 357 goes through a whole lot more walls than 45. 45 is big, so it is more "blunt", it do more hitting than penetrating.

I

You can find videos of all the standard pistol calibers going through plywood and cedar shingles or the like. 17 sheets of dry wall stacked together is not an insignificant barrier and most homes these days are framing and paneling that is meant to provide heat/cold protection. They aren’t designed to stop incoming bullets. Absent outer walls of cinder block those cartridges can and will go through the exterior of a home. I’ve seen it firsthand. This doesn’t even get into the reality that many of us have windows around our homes. If bullets can be fatal going through the laminated safety glass on vehicles they can be fatal going through safety glass (though glass can cause a good degree of deflection).

When you compare these cartridges in JHP in terms of ballistics testing they penetrate to roughly the same depths in ballistics gelatin (by design mind you) and JHPs are typically not designed to expand in hard barriers so that you can have some degree of barrier penetration (Vista Outdoors has as part of their tests penetration testing after passing through steel). My point is if you’re expecting a dramatic difference in penetration going out of the home between 9mm and 45ACP I haven’t seen evidence that this is true. Again, if it has the potential to hurt a person in a home it has the potential to do so going out of a home.


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[Alan0354]

You can find videos of all the standard pistol calibers going through plywood and cedar shingles or the like. 17 sheets of dry wall stacked together is not an insignificant barrier and most homes these days are framing and paneling that is meant to provide heat/cold protection. They aren’t designed to stop incoming bullets. Absent outer walls of cinder block those cartridges can and will go through the exterior of a home. I’ve seen it firsthand. This doesn’t even get into the reality that many of us have windows around our homes. If bullets can be fatal going through the laminated safety glass on vehicles they can be fatal going through safety glass (though glass can cause a good degree of deflection).

When you compare these cartridges in JHP in terms of ballistics testing they penetrate to roughly the same depths in ballistics gelatin (by design mind you) and JHPs are typically not designed to expand in hard barriers so that you can have some degree of barrier penetration (Vista Outdoors has as part of their tests penetration testing after passing through steel). My point is if you’re expecting a dramatic difference in penetration going out of the home between 9mm and 45ACP I haven’t seen evidence that this is true. Again, if it has the potential to hurt a person in a home it has the potential to do so going out of a home.


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I did read article long time ago comparing FMJ and JHP in going through walls, big difference.

That's my point, comparing 9mm to 45 only. Here we talk about 10mm, it is much worst. I just do my best to stop the intruders with minimal force, not being Rambo. Just want the minimum to get the job done in home defense.

Ha ha, all the windows in the house are double windows with 1/4" safety laminated glass and 1/4" lacent(I think) that is polymer, those for bullet proof if thicker. I paid a lot of money for that.

 

[Forte S+W]

Practically everything will penetrate standard interior walls, insulation, and exterior siding. (Seriously, even birdshot goes through walls.)

If you're worried about shooting through walls, then you might want to look into buying a TASER or something, because caliber choice won't make any bit of difference, not unless you live inside a Log Cabin anyway.

Seriously, there are no shortage of videos on YouTube of folks shooting through simulated interior/exterior walls built exactly the same as real walls, and in every single one I've ever seen, even birdshot will go straight through multiple walls. It doesn't matter whether you use a .22 Pistol or a 10mm, any bullet is going to go through walls, regardless of whether it is an FMJ or JHP.

 

[shurshot]

I have read this thread... and have come to the conclusion I'm confused. I have no desire to damage my extractor, or shoot through walls with my 9mm, .357, .45 or 10mm.

I need to sell my guns and just get a Lightsaber.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Admittedly, it's the same folks talking between and at each other.

But if we were all to came together, we'd find more similarities than differences.

Finally, in the end, we can all agree the 10mm FPS and Muzzle Energy that is so often stated isn't substantiated to anything but variation in results....

 

[TunnelRat]

I did read article long time ago comparing FMJ and JHP in going through walls, big difference.

That's my point, comparing 9mm to 45 only. Here we talk about 10mm, it is much worst. I just do my best to stop the intruders with minimal force, not being Rambo. Just want the minimum to get the job done in home defense.

Ha ha, all the windows in the house are double windows with 1/4" safety laminated glass and 1/4" lacent(I think) that is polymer, those for bullet proof if thicker. I paid a lot of money for that.

Even JHPs will go straight through most building materials. That’s what I’ve been talking about and as mentioned you can find videos showing this. Will FMJs go through more of them were we to stack them? Very likely, but modern hollowpoints are designed to shoot through barriers and not expand while doing so. This is in part because there are real world situations where you want to be able to defeat barriers even when using hollowpoints. What I’ve been saying is 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm will all penetrate through the exterior walls of a home, even in hollowpoint form.

I get the feeling you didn’t get my point at all, whether for obtuseness or the strongest case of confirmation bias I’ve seen in a while. If it’s a failure in my explanation I don’t know how to make it clearer. Best of luck.


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[HighValleyRanch]

Finally, in the end, we can all agree the 10mm FPS and Muzzle Energy that is so often stated isn't substantiated to anything but variation in results....

Hmmm,I might have heard you claim that before!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I am not worry about accidentally hurting people in the house, I am more worry about going through my house and go into neighbor's house and hurt someone there. The outer wall is a lot stronger than sheetrock.

Not unless your exterior walls are solid brick, all the way around.

You can find videos of all the standard pistol calibers going through plywood and cedar shingles or the like. 17 sheets of dry wall stacked together is not an insignificant barrier and most homes these days are framing and paneling that is meant to provide heat/cold protection. They aren’t designed to stop incoming bullets.

This is VERY true. As building codes continue to require more/better insulation, the construction of exterior walls has gotten less, rather than more, substantial. 40 years ago a typical exterior wall of a house was 2x4s at 16" on center, 1/2" CDX plywood exterior sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside.

20 years ago that had changed to 2x6s at 24" on center, 7/16" OSB (Oriented Strand Board) sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the interior.

Today it's more typical to find plywood or OSB only on the corners, for wind bracing. The rest of the exterior walls is 2x4s or 2x6s at 24" on center, lightweight foam plastic sheathing, vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside. Unless a shot hits a stud, that won't even slow a bullet enough to make any difference whatsoever.

 

[Alan0354]

Even JHPs will go straight through most building materials. That’s what I’ve been talking about and as mentioned you can find videos showing this. Will FMJs go through more of them were we to stack them? Very likely, but modern hollowpoints are designed to shoot through barriers and not expand while doing so. This is in part because there are real world situations where you want to be able to defeat barriers even when using hollowpoints. What I’ve been saying is 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm will all penetrate through the exterior walls of a home, even in hollowpoint form.

I get the feeling you didn’t get my point at all, whether for obtuseness or the strongest case of confirmation bias I’ve seen in a while. If it’s a failure in my explanation I don’t know how to make it clearer. Best of luck.


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Watched a lot of youtube video, it's disappointing that it doesn't make that big a difference.

But there are some difference, JHP is definitely better than FMJ. 20 gauge shotgun with smaller bird shot is the best.

38special seems to penetrate the least walls.

45 penetrates as much as 9mm, but at least it dump more energy on the criminal's body when hit.

 

[Alan0354]

Not unless your exterior walls are solid brick, all the way around.


This is VERY true. As building codes continue to require more/better insulation, the construction of exterior walls has gotten less, rather than more, substantial. 40 years ago a typical exterior wall of a house was 2x4s at 16" on center, 1/2" CDX plywood exterior sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside.

20 years ago that had changed to 2x6s at 24" on center, 7/16" OSB (Oriented Strand Board) sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the interior.

Today it's more typical to find plywood or OSB only on the corners, for wind bracing. The rest of the exterior walls is 2x4s or 2x6s at 24" on center, lightweight foam plastic sheathing, vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside. Unless a shot hits a stud, that won't even slow a bullet enough to make any difference whatsoever.

My house are from the late 60s, The exterior wall has 1/2" plywood with like 1/2" to 5/8" of stucco ( cement with wire mash). The 2X4 are like 14" apart. Not that it makes much of a difference.

 

[FunGramps]

Not to worry. Center mass, and it's all over with either.

 

[Nanuk]

In the end it is all academic. As I stated clean your gun. No I would not do so as a carry load, only for range use.

Simple logistics, I have thousands of 40 rounds and a few hundred 10mm rounds. If I had a source of 10mm brass it would be different. I am sure others are in the same boat.

Just don't shoot 9mm's in your 10mm.

 

[Alan0354]

Ok guys, Since I am actually the thread starter( I almost forgot already!!). I thought I have it all figure out already, now I know the penetration is not very difference between different caliber JHP( yes, there is still quite a difference from FMJ, still better). So my choice is 9mm, .40S&W and 45ACP. I don't want 10mm, from what I read today also, 10mm is more expensive, a lot of power, not exactly what I want.

I don't know enough about ballistics, is .40 better than 9mm for self defense? Is 45ACP better than both?

I did see one video that 45ACP penetrated a little less than 9mm, not a big difference, but a few inches less in the ballistic gel.

I am still looking around for Sig SP2022 40, and I'll see the price of the HK P2000SK. I don't know of any DA/SA 45ACP legal in Kalif.