@stagpanther, I hunt hogs and deer with it. It is more of a side arm in deer hunts so I have not taken any deer with it yet. But I have killed two hogs with it. One jumped and spun around a little bit and then collapsed, that was a low shoulder shot. And the other one ran about twenty yards after being shot and then went down. None of these shots were pass throughs. And choosing between the 200 grain and the 180 grain is kind of a tossup. I chose the 200 grain because of deeper penetration and slightly more energy. But I think the 180 grain would work fine too. With the 180 grain you will get better expansion and nearly the amount of energy and possibly a little less penetration but it should still be adequate. And I use the Underwood XTPS, it is a very hot round and fun to shoot.
10mm gel & armor test: Underwood 140 gr Extreme Penetrator
- Thread starter Andrew Wiggin
- Start date
Derbel McDillet
Moderator
Yes, it is the standard for testing soft BODY ARMOR, not bullets designed to defeat soft body armor. Body armor that performs well with clay backing performs better when worn on a human torso - because the human body is flexible, resilient and absorbs much of the kinetic energy transmitted to the armor. It distributes the energy over a wide area, whereas clay does not perform the same way. With clay the energy is focused in a small area making it easier for the bullet to perforate soft armor.
Andrew Wiggin
New member
That's an interesting theory. Do you have a reference to support it?
This bullet isn't marketed as armor piercing (that would be illegal) and I don't think it was designed to penetrate armor. I had no idea whether it would defeat the vest.
This bullet isn't marketed as armor piercing (that would be illegal) and I don't think it was designed to penetrate armor. I had no idea whether it would defeat the vest.
Derbel McDillet
Moderator
"Body Armor Penetration Dynamics", Duncan MacPherson; Lt. Ed Fincel, CHP; Nicholas J. Miloskovich. Wound Ballistics Review 3(2), 1997
Andrew Wiggin
New member
Is that hosted anywhere convenient? I don't have a copy of it.
The penetration figure is not impressive for a non-expanding handgun round. Both 230gr FMJ .45ACP and 124gr FMJ 9mm Nato will penetrate as deep as the tested ammo in ballistics gel.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/9mm US M882.jpg
9mm M882--70cm of penetration = 27.6"
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/45ACP 230gr FMJ.jpg
.45ACP --66-67cm of penetration = 26 to 26.4"
That's actually on the low side for penetration of a non-expanding .380ACP round.
According to this test (http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP/380 ACP 10% gelatin results.pdf) American Eagle 95gr FMJ .380ACP penetrated nearly 21".
Andrew Wiggin
New member
Yeah, ShootingTheBull410 compared the .380 version to .380 FMJ and XTP. The "Extreme Penetrator" penetrated less than the FMJ.
Keep in mind the difference in nose shape between the new round and typical ball ammo. I would expect a round nose to slip further into the media.
I think it would be better to compare it to a semi wadcutter type round. I tried to find one of A. Wiggins gel tests using some sort wfngc but its frustrating on my phone. Will check later.
I think it would be better to compare it to a semi wadcutter type round. I tried to find one of A. Wiggins gel tests using some sort wfngc but its frustrating on my phone. Will check later.
Andrew Wiggin
New member
Almost all of my handgun ammo testing has been with expanding ammo. I did test a 10mm 180 gr PPU JHP that failed to expand and a 10mm 220 gr hard cast. Both exited the side of the smaller blocks I was using at the time.
Derbel McDillet
Moderator
I don't know if MacPherson's article is available online. I recently moved and my copy is somewhere in a box out in the garage. I'll PM you when I find it and will scan it and e-mail it to you.
As for this bullet penetrating less than standard ball ammunition, its design is very similar to the Devel Radically Dynamic bullet. It has a reverse (concave) ogive that is designed to create a large temporary cavity to tear open soft tissues that are cut by the raised "fins" on the nose and ogive. This action probably increases penetration resistance and would explain why it penetrates less than a simple round nose FMJ bullet.
A semi-wadcutter bullet usually penetrates deeper than a roundnose bullet of the same weight and velocity because the flat nose propels soft tissues away from the bullet (the bullet is enveloped in a temporary cavity until its velocity decreases to the point where the temporary cavity no longer envelops the bullet). Because less tissue comes into direct contact with the bullet there is less drag resistance, which is what allows it to penetrate deeper.
As for this bullet penetrating less than standard ball ammunition, its design is very similar to the Devel Radically Dynamic bullet. It has a reverse (concave) ogive that is designed to create a large temporary cavity to tear open soft tissues that are cut by the raised "fins" on the nose and ogive. This action probably increases penetration resistance and would explain why it penetrates less than a simple round nose FMJ bullet.
A semi-wadcutter bullet usually penetrates deeper than a roundnose bullet of the same weight and velocity because the flat nose propels soft tissues away from the bullet (the bullet is enveloped in a temporary cavity until its velocity decreases to the point where the temporary cavity no longer envelops the bullet). Because less tissue comes into direct contact with the bullet there is less drag resistance, which is what allows it to penetrate deeper.
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some people will disagree with me, probably a lot. but I have 16 rounds of ammo in my carry gun. I carry hollowpoints for 14 of them, but the last two rounds I want a hard penetrator. you never know, I could come across a crazy-man with a vest. probably about as likely as needing 16rnd of ammo. I figure if someone is behind hard cover or has a suit on or something crazy(like the theatre guy) I will empty my whole mag hoping my last two will get through. I think these rounds are pretty sweet.
Andy Blozinski
New member
John, those drawings of bullet penetrations are unlike any measured data I've seen. They're incredibly higher than anything I've seen posted on this forum or anywhere else.
Keep in mind that they are FMJ projectiles, not expanding ammunition.
Here's what the source has to say about them:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
Found a picture of some gel shot with a 230gr .45ACP FMJ.
http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/45-acp/#
Total penetration distance is actually significantly more than in the diagram from firearmstactical.com--almost 3 feet.
From the same source (Black Hills), here's a similar picture of some gel shot with a 115gr FMJ 9mm. Again, the picture is remarkably similar to the diagram from firearmstactical. Penetration in this case is virtually identical to what the firearmstactical diagram shows although this test uses a lighter bullet.
http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/9mm-luger/#
Here's what the source has to say about them:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
"The wound profile was developed at the Letterman Army Institute of Research in order to measure the amount, type, and location of tissue disruption produced by a given projectile, and to present the data in a standardized, easy to understand picture.
"The entire missile path is captured in one or more 25 x 25 x 50 cm blocks of 10% ordnance gelatin at 4°C. The penetration depth, projectile deformation and fragmentation pattern, yaw, and temporary cavity of the missile in living anesthetized swine tissue are reproduced by this gelatin. Measurements are taken from cut sections of the blocks after mapping of the fragmentation pattern with biplaner x-rays. These data are then reproduced on a life sized wound profile which includes a scale to facilitate measurement of tissue disruption dimensions, a drawing of the loaded cartridge case before firing, the bullet weight and morphology before and after firing (and calculated percent of fragmentation), and the striking velocity.
"The entire missile path is captured in one or more 25 x 25 x 50 cm blocks of 10% ordnance gelatin at 4°C. The penetration depth, projectile deformation and fragmentation pattern, yaw, and temporary cavity of the missile in living anesthetized swine tissue are reproduced by this gelatin. Measurements are taken from cut sections of the blocks after mapping of the fragmentation pattern with biplaner x-rays. These data are then reproduced on a life sized wound profile which includes a scale to facilitate measurement of tissue disruption dimensions, a drawing of the loaded cartridge case before firing, the bullet weight and morphology before and after firing (and calculated percent of fragmentation), and the striking velocity.
Found a picture of some gel shot with a 230gr .45ACP FMJ.
http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/45-acp/#
Total penetration distance is actually significantly more than in the diagram from firearmstactical.com--almost 3 feet.
From the same source (Black Hills), here's a similar picture of some gel shot with a 115gr FMJ 9mm. Again, the picture is remarkably similar to the diagram from firearmstactical. Penetration in this case is virtually identical to what the firearmstactical diagram shows although this test uses a lighter bullet.
http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/9mm-luger/#
stagpanther
New member
what range(s) and velocities? This is quite remarkable.
stagpanther
New member
I think it is pretty well established that if you take a 10mm and push it on the warm side of 12 to 1300 fps you will get well up into the 700+ flbs range of kinetic energy with 185-200 gr projectiles. That is going to be a very bad day for whatever it hits.
Wreck-n-Crew
New member
Cast bullet makers Generally make .40 projectiles between 12-14 BHN AKA Hard cast. My .40/10mm Bullets drop in the same BHN range When Water dropped from the mold. They won't even deform in ballistics gelatin and don't flatten much against hard objects. General rule is to cast them hard enough to take the pressure and velocity of the round and they are definitely covered in the BHN arena .
454 Casull Start at 16-18 BHN (some say 18 but several test have been done at 16 with no leading) and they are Magnums as far as pressure and velocity go. Over 60,00 CUP and they have to use the thicker small rifle primer. They can push a 250gr round over 1,900FPS.