False statement.
Team USA won the F-Class World Championship in 2009 with some shooters (Team Savage) using stock, Model 12 F/TR rifles- in .308
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/f-tr/page/6/
1000 Yard Rifle
- Thread starter DTHEWOLF1492
- Start date
False statement.
Team USA won the F-Class World Championship in 2009 with some shooters (Team Savage) using stock, Model 12 F/TR rifles- in .308
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/f-tr/page/6/
Barrel rigidity isn't a huge issue as far as accuracy is concerned, repeatable harmonics are a much bigger issue. Bart B. has reminded us that barrels walk because of uneven shoulder pressure, out of true bore external dimensions, or internal stresses in the barrel as the barrel heats, not because the steel sags. My research into steel sagging says differently, but that focused on the effects of gravity on a horizontal barrel producing different deflection at different temperatures.
A fluted barrel will always be more rigid than a non fluted barrel of the same mass, because the non fluted barrel will be longer and skinnier. A non-fluted barrel will always be more rigid than a fluted barrel of the same diameter. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Jimro
I know , understand and except all of those points . Maybe I did not make my point well . I'm just surprised when you flute a barrel you reduce it's rigidity by almost half . Thats huge IMO and would be rarely worth it if ever unless doing a lot of rapid fire shooting .
Let me take this thread one step further since we're way off topic but not really .
If you don't have a trued receiver and squared barrel that has not had all stress relieved bla bla bla . What barrel contour would be best .
Do you want a straight bull barrel that is more rigid but holds heat longer . Therefore causing longer periods of heat deflection ?
Do you want a less rigid barrel that cools faster for a shorter heat deflection period
Is the answer predicated on what type of shooting you plan on doing . Meaning the answer will be different if your shooting 1 round every 10 sec opposed to 1 round every minute ?
Let me take this thread one step further since we're way off topic but not really .
If you don't have a trued receiver and squared barrel that has not had all stress relieved bla bla bla . What barrel contour would be best .
Do you want a straight bull barrel that is more rigid but holds heat longer . Therefore causing longer periods of heat deflection ?
Do you want a less rigid barrel that cools faster for a shorter heat deflection period
Is the answer predicated on what type of shooting you plan on doing . Meaning the answer will be different if your shooting 1 round every 10 sec opposed to 1 round every minute ?
Jimro, you're almost right with:
I'm not sure about the first half. I think it depends on flute depth and shape as well as the number of them.
But you're center X on target with your comment that fluting a barrel does nothing for accuracy. In fact, if done at the wrong time in a barrel making process, it'll definitely change the bore and groove diameters under the flutes; bigger for button rifled barrels, smaller for hammer forged ones and maybe just a tiny, tiny bit on cut rifled barrels. Too many 'smiths and barrel makers have run air gauges or hole mic's back and forth in barrels before and after fluting; those who have know very well how this happens.
Regarding the effects of gravity on a horizontal barrel producing different deflection at different temperatures. I suppose a barrel hot enough to bend more down from gravity may well do so. That means it's no longer as rigid as it was and its resonant frequency goes lower as does it's harmonics it wiggles at, plus, it'll have a greater amount of wiggling amplitude. Therefore, the bullet will exit at a different point in the muzzle whip axis. But I've not observed this happening with 24 inch sporter size barrels shot 24 times in 50 seconds in matches where they're used that way. Zeros remained the same from ambient temperature to close to, if not at, the boiling point of water and enough to cause serious second degree burns on ones skin. So, a barrel's gotta be hotter than these referenced to cause accuracy problems when they're really hot.
It should read:
I'm not sure about the first half. I think it depends on flute depth and shape as well as the number of them.
But you're center X on target with your comment that fluting a barrel does nothing for accuracy. In fact, if done at the wrong time in a barrel making process, it'll definitely change the bore and groove diameters under the flutes; bigger for button rifled barrels, smaller for hammer forged ones and maybe just a tiny, tiny bit on cut rifled barrels. Too many 'smiths and barrel makers have run air gauges or hole mic's back and forth in barrels before and after fluting; those who have know very well how this happens.
Regarding the effects of gravity on a horizontal barrel producing different deflection at different temperatures. I suppose a barrel hot enough to bend more down from gravity may well do so. That means it's no longer as rigid as it was and its resonant frequency goes lower as does it's harmonics it wiggles at, plus, it'll have a greater amount of wiggling amplitude. Therefore, the bullet will exit at a different point in the muzzle whip axis. But I've not observed this happening with 24 inch sporter size barrels shot 24 times in 50 seconds in matches where they're used that way. Zeros remained the same from ambient temperature to close to, if not at, the boiling point of water and enough to cause serious second degree burns on ones skin. So, a barrel's gotta be hotter than these referenced to cause accuracy problems when they're really hot.
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Bart B.
You are correct, I should have specified that there are exceptions to the mass/length equation. And you are correct about improper fluting not helping accuracy at all, but that doesn't stop people from thinking it does.
In terms of heating and decreasing harmonic frequency, I can't prove it, but I can say that logically it should "even out" in terms of keeping a zero at a given range. Like the old Enfields where the muzzle whip allowed ammo with significant SD to still shoot tight at 600 (the bullets weren't taking the same path through the air, but were impacting in tight groups). As the bore heats up, friction increases enough to slow the bullet a little bit, the resonant frequency decreases a little bit, and the the consequent muzzle whip tosses the bullet out a little higher than the earlier faster rounds.
Can't prove it happens that way, but it is a logical explanation of how a muzzle can droop a thousandth of an inch with a 100 degree F change in temp and still shoot tight.
I've been trying for years to come up with an economical way to put an aluminum sleeve over a premium pencil thin barrel. So far I've not been able to do it without either a massive amount of equipment investment or time investment. Let the aluminum act as a big heat sink and the large diameter maintain rigidity, just one more attempt at the great compromise of "light weight maintainable accuracy" dilemma.
Jimro
You are correct, I should have specified that there are exceptions to the mass/length equation. And you are correct about improper fluting not helping accuracy at all, but that doesn't stop people from thinking it does.
In terms of heating and decreasing harmonic frequency, I can't prove it, but I can say that logically it should "even out" in terms of keeping a zero at a given range. Like the old Enfields where the muzzle whip allowed ammo with significant SD to still shoot tight at 600 (the bullets weren't taking the same path through the air, but were impacting in tight groups). As the bore heats up, friction increases enough to slow the bullet a little bit, the resonant frequency decreases a little bit, and the the consequent muzzle whip tosses the bullet out a little higher than the earlier faster rounds.
Can't prove it happens that way, but it is a logical explanation of how a muzzle can droop a thousandth of an inch with a 100 degree F change in temp and still shoot tight.
I've been trying for years to come up with an economical way to put an aluminum sleeve over a premium pencil thin barrel. So far I've not been able to do it without either a massive amount of equipment investment or time investment. Let the aluminum act as a big heat sink and the large diameter maintain rigidity, just one more attempt at the great compromise of "light weight maintainable accuracy" dilemma.
Jimro
I believe a barrel hot enough to droop too much will also be soft enough to no longer be safe with max pressure standard loads produces. Even cold barrels droop a bit and the muzzle droop angle's easy to measure.
Several rifles have positive compensation for large fps spreads in bullet muzzle velocities. Faster ones leave the muzzle sooner in its up swing; slower ones later. The Brits proved this over a century ago and it also happens with M14's. Neither has anything to do with barrels heating up too much.
Several rifles have positive compensation for large fps spreads in bullet muzzle velocities. Faster ones leave the muzzle sooner in its up swing; slower ones later. The Brits proved this over a century ago and it also happens with M14's. Neither has anything to do with barrels heating up too much.
Bart B. Having seen machine gun barrels warp, I'd say that there isn't a bolt action shooter on the planet who can work the bolt on a match rifle and reload fast enough to get to an unsafe barrel temperature (at least with a 308 Win, not sure about other cartridges).
However, a machinegun can cause melt the barrel to the point where it droops enough and is soft enough to blow out the side. Knew a guy who did that in Iraq, was up in the turret and didn't keep the spare barrel close enough to do the required changes. He was a big stickler for training crew drills after that, live and learn I guess.
Jimro
However, a machinegun can cause melt the barrel to the point where it droops enough and is soft enough to blow out the side. Knew a guy who did that in Iraq, was up in the turret and didn't keep the spare barrel close enough to do the required changes. He was a big stickler for training crew drills after that, live and learn I guess.
Jimro
Yup, the old M1 ball, 173gr FMJBT. Designed to extend the range of our 1917 and 1919 Browning machine guns to achieve the same level of effectiveness as the german 196gr FMJBT spitzer. Dropped from production prior to WWII as national guardsmen didn't like the increased recoil and only had short training ranges anyways. Resurrected as the M72 match bullet (but without the crimping cannelure) by Frankford Arsenal. Made it all the way to M118 Special Ball before finally being replaced by the 175 SMK in the early 1990's. Not a bad run for a service bullet.
Jimro
Jimro
And now back to our original subject... lol
I have as yet to enjoy shooting a Tika, so cannot comment upon that make.
I have had the pleasure of owning a fine Savage in 30-06 Springfield.
Had trigger work done, and a muzzle brake added. Cost about $200 for both of those. Trigger after work done broke cleanly at 2lbs.
At the local range here in central PA. could consistently hit golf balls at 300 meters.
Hey it is fun, and makes it more interesting than drilling holes in paper all the time.
What about the 6.5-284 Norma??? I have been lead to believe that this is a good round for 1000 yds, with modest recoil..
I have as yet to enjoy shooting a Tika, so cannot comment upon that make.
I have had the pleasure of owning a fine Savage in 30-06 Springfield.
Had trigger work done, and a muzzle brake added. Cost about $200 for both of those. Trigger after work done broke cleanly at 2lbs.
At the local range here in central PA. could consistently hit golf balls at 300 meters.
Hey it is fun, and makes it more interesting than drilling holes in paper all the time.
What about the 6.5-284 Norma??? I have been lead to believe that this is a good round for 1000 yds, with modest recoil..
Get either a Savage in 30-06 or a Tikka in 30-06. I have Sightrons Big Sky in both rifles. Very Close to your price point but both rifles and scopes will get you to 1000 easily.
Whatever pill the 308 shoots, the 30-06 will do it farther and faster.
Another caliber to consider would be a 243 same brands of rifles. This caliber easily makes it to 1000 alot faster than the 30-06 but you might need to consider the wind alot more.
Whatever pill the 308 shoots, the 30-06 will do it farther and faster.
Another caliber to consider would be a 243 same brands of rifles. This caliber easily makes it to 1000 alot faster than the 30-06 but you might need to consider the wind alot more.
I got a question
Why is it the 30-06 is not so accurate ? I don't understand what makes this round so inferior to the 308 when it comes to accuracy .
Why is the 300 WM accurate and the 30-06 not so ?
If all things being equal , Rifle , bullet , worked up load . why is the 30-06 less accurate ?
EDIT Im going to start a new thread on this subject
Why is it the 30-06 is not so accurate ? I don't understand what makes this round so inferior to the 308 when it comes to accuracy .
Why is the 300 WM accurate and the 30-06 not so ?
If all things being equal , Rifle , bullet , worked up load . why is the 30-06 less accurate ?
EDIT Im going to start a new thread on this subject
coalroller
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I shoot a 6x47 lapua, in the 1000 yard matches. I'm not sure if you want to buy a gun or build a gun, if you build I'm sure it's going to run you over. $1300 without a scope. Mine did at least. For optics a 12 power is not even going to come close to making it for a 1000 yard rifle. Optics is key, don't go cheap in That department. I have a Nightforce 12-42x56 and a sightron 10-50x60 and I can see the holes in the target at 1000 yards. I would recommend either one of those scopes. But they are over 1k each.