100% non-metallic round: Does it exist, could it exist?

The reason the Military is interested in caseless is INCREASED reliability. No extraction..no ejection failures with caseless. The HK G11 was an attempt at it. The tech has not caught up to the desire, YET.

This assumes increased reliability, and with absolutely no solid concept yet for a magazine fed caseless round or rifle, they have absolutely no reason to bother yet. They are obviously involved in the development and hoping dearly that they can create something to replace that ungainly and archaic casing, but you can bet that there aren't any significant discoveries yet. Once they actually have a shootable design, then, they have the ungodly period of refinement to the point that they would field it.

this sort of bounces back to the rem etronx again. There are only a few electrically fired weapons in the entire arsenal. For one, the vulcan cannon, and that is electronically fired because it is running at a speed that can't deal with firing pins. With them being shipboard, there's little risk of the things going out of service for long periods.

The military would love to have electronically fired ammo, I think, but like caseless, having electronic fire control is too strange and different.
 
"This assumes increased reliability, and with absolutely no solid concept yet for a magazine fed caseless round or rifle, they have absolutely no reason to bother yet. They are obviously involved in the development and hoping dearly that they can create something to replace that ungainly and archaic casing, but you can bet that there aren't any significant discoveries yet. Once they actually have a shootable design, then, they have the ungodly period of refinement to the point that they would field it."

So, what you're saying is that this is like just about any other weapon development cycle. But what you also appear to be saying is... don't bother trying, because it's far too hard, and doing something that's hard is, well, hard?

The G11 actually worked, and worked well, as a conceptual design. It was very reliable mechanically, but again, the biggest problem was the varying nature of the propellant.


"The military would love to have electronically fired ammo, I think, but like caseless, having electronic fire control is too strange and different."

Electrically fired weapons have been around and in service in various nations since at least the 1920s.

The German MG131 used electrically (early electronic control system, actually) in World War II.
 
So, what you're saying is that this is like just about any other weapon development cycle. But what you also appear to be saying is... don't bother trying, because it's far too hard, and doing something that's hard is, well, hard?

No, it's not what I said.

until someone comes up with a viable idea, a concept even, for a rifle designed to carry in afghanistan, vietnam, venezuala, greenland, etc, there is absolutely no point in trying to design ammo for it, is there?

Until we can figure out a method of sealing that breech without a brass envelope and have it work at least as well as brass, no commercial unit will waste a penny on it. The government may throw money at it, but you have a certain number of immovable obstacles.

An important question remains. can we make a rifle to use caseless? will our caseless ammo and rifle match the capabilities of the AR platform? Until we have designed and tested it and proven it's worth, it's a pipe dream, just like energy based weapons. I truly believe that the systems we have in place all the way from the .22 lr to the battleship missouri which have been in existence for over a century are as good as we will get until god knows when. Have we ever gotten the shipboard rail gun on line and completely functional?

Electrically fired weapons have been around and in service in various nations since at least the 1920s.

The German MG131 used electrically (early electronic control system, actually) in World War II.

Both the vulcan and the 131 used the systems to both increase rate of fire and reliablilty. Again, over a half century after the first useful electronic design was put in the field we find ourselves with nothing in particular remaining. No civilian, no military except for extremely limited purposes.

I am simply being realistic. It's easy to get government or private funding to research third and fourth hand smoke. expectations will be low. not so with weapons systems.
 
"No, it's not what I said."

OK, you didn't say it directly. The inference, however, was strong and clear.

"until someone comes up with a viable idea, a concept even, for a rifle designed to carry in afghanistan, vietnam, venezuala, greenland, etc, there is absolutely no point in trying to design ammo for it, is there?"

So, what you're saying is that someone should invent something that will work perfectly with some other thing that hasn't even been invented yet.

Yeah. R&D... It doesn't work like that.

"Until we can figure out a method of sealing that breech without a brass envelope and have it work at least as well as brass"

You do realize that Voere figured that out?

You do realize that Chassepot and Dreyse figured that out over 100 years ago?

Was it absolutely stone cold perfect, reliable until the end of time? Nothing is. Not even brass.

Now, while you're griping about any attempts at progress, there are some people on your lawn. Better tell them to get offait! :p
 
The MG131 wasn't a particularly fast firing gun. The 88mm shell fired by the Tiger tank was electrically primed. The 88mm shell fired by the FLAK gun wasn't.

Other examples exist.

However, we are getting a bit afield as caseless rounds, firing conventional bullets are not the 100# non-metallic round the OP is asking about.

As previously mentioned, what does one use for a bullet that isn't metallic, but can come at least somewhat close to metallic bullet performance?? And, at what range?

The most useful material that I can think of right now that isn't metallic would be stone. the first cannons shot stone balls. But for small arms, possibly useful but no where near the utility of lead, copper, or steel.

Solid stone (in a sabot) would survive firing, but won't perform like metal when it impacts. Likely shattering on anything hard, and certainly not up to expanding while staying together. Perhaps stone powder in a polymer matrix?? Anything else out there that approaches the density and malleability of metal for bullets??

Wood could work, but again only at very close range, and to stop the vampires, you have to hit them in the heart...:rolleyes:

High density plastic could work, but again, despite uber high velocity possible, the very light projectile sheds it very, very rapidly. NO military, police, or even sporting interest in bullets that have a lethal range of only a double handful of feet, let along yards.

There is, however, a tactical niche I can see them fitting in. Self defense. Inside the house/very short range / belly to belly distance. This might even be a "better mousetrap" in certain situations. Barrier penetration would be about zilch, so all that worrying about shooting through walls and hitting others is very low. Penetration of unarmored human? Some testing needs to be done. Perhaps one might find something that reliably goes half way through (reaches vital organs) but does not normally exit??

Big plus if you can make it to work in existing guns, too. No idea if a plastic bullet (even at 2-3000fps from a pistol) would have the recoil impulse needed to operate the standard tilt barrel recoil operated design. Again, testing is needed.

Caseless ammo, using "regular" bullets has been tried, and has had limited success but not enough, so far for serious military consideration.

The basic problems are
forming the powder into a solid that will survive the rigors of handling, shipment, and the feeding cycle of the gun, AND ignite reliably, AND burn cleanly enough that residue doesn't build up in the chamber preventing chambering further rounds.

The biggest stumbling block not mentioned is HEAT. Extracting and ejecting the brass (or steel:rolleyes:) case removes a lot of heat from the chamber. Also the heat resistance of the case though slight, does delay cook off of chambered rounds a bit. This is another side of the coin with caseless ammo, and modern combat firepower requirements.

And, bear in mind, that any firearm design for caseless rounds still needs some kind of system for extracting an unfired round from the chamber, and ejecting it from the gun, so the gun can be unloaded. AND something better (if possible) than a rod down the barrel for clearing stoppages, which ARE going to happen.

Lots of things to consider, and to date, we haven't come up with anything that can do all of what we want done, better, or even as well as the brass cartridge case we currently use.
 
"The MG131 wasn't a particularly fast firing gun."

At 900 rounds per minute, it was up there.

"The biggest stumbling block not mentioned is HEAT. "

Yes, I mentioned brass' ability to serve as a heat sink.

Heat build up, causing rounds to cook off, was an early problem with the G11. That was solved, partially, with a higher ignition temperature propellant.


As for the projectile, finding something with the weight of metals is an issue. Nothing is going to approach the weight of metals. Some of the polymer-ceramic blends may start to come close, but the heaviest ones I know of are still only about a fifth as heavy as lead.
 
Mike, we can't agree because I think that perfection had better be what we get and I don't think that we can get it. You rank the voere as a success because it worked. I consider it to be a success at a civilian, casual level. I need to give up on my statements and restate them. Caseless ammo isn't generally wanted by civilians, it's desirable for extremely high volume usage.

If we manage to put together another one-off type weapon, or even a successful program to create a heavier use system, I guess that we can call it a success. My only definition of success in this area are if we can put caseless ammo on a sales floor and the guns in the cabinets, and have them sell.

That, or have them used in the military.
 
And yes, you are right, school got out just now and the meddling kids are going to walk past any minute now. Time to set up the sprinkler and light a cigar. I love it when they have to go in to school the next day and tell their teachers that the guy next door ruined their homework. The teachers get so tired of dogs.
 
Yes it has been tried many times before , one of the early attempts was in 1968 Daisy Air Rifle co. marketed the Daisy 5.5 V/L Rifle , it used caseless 22 ammo, no primer , the heat developed from the spring compression of the piston ignited the compressed powder charge that was glued to the bullet base. No case , no primer and it worked.
The problem was ATF ruled it wasn't an airgun but a firearm and Daisy wasn't licensed to manufacture them.
Search the term "caseless ammunition" and you can read about all manner of things tried.

I do have a bag of all plastic Activ shotgun shell hulls, no brass head at all , they even have a plastic rim but they did have a primer. Shotgun shells do not need a brass head and can be made totally of plastic....get the method of ignition figured out and it would work.
Gary
 
The VL was an interesting Idea. essentially a pellet of plastic propellant wedged into the hollow base of a pellet. It added an accelerating pressure that didn't reduce as it went down the barrel.

The same effect can be accomplished today by using heavy oil in the gun's mechanism, or even by just gunking some beeswax into the hollow bases.

the thing worked because compressing the air of a large cylinder into the tiny air space behind the bullet creates extreme heat, just like in a diesel engine. That heated air that approaches a thousand or higher causes the combustible gunk to combust and add the extra effect of an explosion to the driving force.

Since the pressure of the chamber is still so relatively low, there isn't blowback.

My spring action rifle came heavily lubed, the first dozen rounds resulted in unbelievable noise. Louder than a .22lr rifle. CCI cb shorts were far quieter.
 
The problem was ATF ruled it wasn't an airgun but a firearm and Daisy wasn't licensed to manufacture them.

They must have gotten an FFL eventually, there was a later line of Daisy .22 LR.

Does science fiction count?
Philip Jose Farmer had muzzleloaders firing large phenolic ball.
Vernor Vinge had the "arty" with fibreglas tubes firing explosive shell. Lack of velocity made up by explosive warheads. No small arm version.
Steven Gould had guns with single use "cardboard" barrels firing ceramic slugs or "bird gravel", but the Rangers carried the Gyro rifle with a ceramic rocket projectile.
 
Daisy could have quite easily licensed the VL name and design to nearly any manufacturer and just removed production off site and off of the company books. The licensing fees and a percentage could have been paid by someone such as savage to use the design for in house manufacture.
 
Does science fiction count?

The SF community has numerous references to both personal rail guns and ray/laser guns, two other problematic weapons that will almost certainly never exist.

Just like the individual asteroid mining ships that larry niven used, you can't pack the energy needed into a personal sized device. Chemical explosives and dense projectiles are the most practical and almost unavoidable solutions to personal weapons. The only alternative available now is called airsoft. That is, until we create paintballs filled with dimethyl mercury or some other skin penetrating toxin.
 
The Army recently awarded contracts to build prototypes of light machine guns/squad automatic weapons using non-metallic cartridges (belt fed at this point). Assuming reliability, a big factor is the weight savings. The article listed below mentions 20% weight reduction while the video, talking about another manufacturer, says there is a 40% weight reduction. I've never been in the military, but I've got to think soldiers would love to carry almost twice as much ammo with the same weight as metal cased ammo.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...mo-and-one-of-these-companies-might-build-it/
 
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