03 FFL (C&R) Bound Book question
- Thread starter beeker77
- Start date
Double negative. If you are forced to purchase a firearm on a 4473, you have NOT used your 03 license to purchase said firearm and it then has the same status as any other modern (non C&R) firearm you have to do a 4473 for.
In that case, you have the same status as John Q. Public.
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Did you read ATF's response to Technosavant listed above???
It does not matter HOW you acquire the C&R firearm. If you acquire it AFTER you get your 03-FFL, it goes in the bound book. You can do a FORM 4 transfer of an NFA C&R and it STILL goes in the bound book. You do a face-to-face purchase of a C&R from a friend, it goes in the bound book. The amount of paperwork you do to get it is meaningless. End of story.
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I spoke to my ATF field agent this afternoon and he said otherwise.
By your "logic," if you purchase a firearm that isn't a C&R, it has to go in your book.
Purchasing an NFA C&R on a Form 4 bypasses an SOT 3, and yes, must go in your book. On the other hand, if you get it through the SOT 3 rather than directly with an 03 C&R, you will fill out a 4473 at time of acceptance, just like any other firearm you do not use your license for. Ergo, it doesn't go in your book. You are John Q. Public.
A FTF purchase of a C&R from your "friend", by regulation, goes in your book; This is done on "the honor system."
The status of the firearm is irrelevant, however, if you are purchasing it on a 4473. Once again, you are John Q. Public.
ANY 4473 purchase makes you John Q. Public. Your gun does not go in your book. You did NOT use your 03 license for the purchase.
Now its "End of story."
ATF's answer to Technosavant made no reference whatsoever to an 03 licensee purchasing a C&R weapon commercially on a 4473.
It referenced all the standard regulations regarding the use of the 03 license to purchase interstate or intrastate or from non-licensees and regarding entry of purchases/dispositions into/out of your bound book.
I suggest you go back and reread it and point out to me where it states that purchases made on a 4473 WITHOUT use of the 03 license are required to be placed in the bound book.
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I currently have 2 C&R pistols. All their information is recorded on a bound book template sheet.
The most C&R firearms I'll have in the near future is 4-5. That'll still fit on the same sheet, and I have several other blanks. I'm not buying a BOOK for a single sheet; a folder will do just fine.
If someone kicks in my door for keeping my completed C&R list in a folder with my C&R paperwork, original license, and copies, I'll laugh all the way to the bank.
Here, this should settle it:
E. RECORDS REQUIRED – LICENSEES
(E1) What is a "bound book?"
A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.
[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#e1
E. RECORDS REQUIRED – LICENSEES
(E1) What is a "bound book?"
A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.
[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#e1
dogtown tom
New member
The passage above is from the ATF "FAQ's"
It is applicable to ALL licensees.
The FAQ's are not the actual regulations, but an attempt to simplify the language in the actual regulations. It probably should read: "on the licensed premises" rather than "on the business premises".
OK, several more phone calls to ATF and now we have no less than 3 field agents and an I.O. supervisor telling me that that "law" only pertains to those weapons you have obtained WITH your 03 C&R FFL. It was unanimous that any weapon you purchase on a 4473 is outside the purview of your license and you are NOT required to enter it in your A/D.
I would suggest you argue with them.
Just for the heck of it, though, next week I am going to contact Martinsburg and see what THEY have to say.
But, hey, if YOU want to enter them in YOUR book, by all means go right ahead.
I believe they told you that. I've been told many different things by ATF over the last 30 years. I was even an 01-FFL for several years. I do suggest that you get your answer in writting. They do tend to change their opinion frequently and without warning, especially field agents.
And like you said, my C&R acquisitions will go into my bound book. For some reason, I still cannot find where it says "record each receipt using collectors license" in the statute. Kind of dumb that a C&R firearm becomes "modern" when you buy it using a 4473, yet returns to being a C&R if you sell it, and its disposition has to be recorded in your bound book.
To quote Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse, "Opinions vary." End of argument.
And like you said, my C&R acquisitions will go into my bound book. For some reason, I still cannot find where it says "record each receipt using collectors license" in the statute. Kind of dumb that a C&R firearm becomes "modern" when you buy it using a 4473, yet returns to being a C&R if you sell it, and its disposition has to be recorded in your bound book.
To quote Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse, "Opinions vary." End of argument.
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dogtown tom
New member
In almost every call I've made to ATF they don't give advice or an interpretation- they quote ATF regulations word for word.
NEVER. NEVER. NEVER, rely on verbal answers from ATF (or for that matter IRS, USPS or any .gov agency).
Time and time again, they are proven wrong. ATF is notorious for issuing conflicting opinions in WRITTEN format. An example of note is the legality of attaching a wooden stock/holster to certain Mauser, Luger & Browning/Inglis Hi Power pistols. In 1981 ATF's Technical Branch issued a ruling that reproduction stock/holsters were okay, several years later they issued another ruling that only original stock/holsters were okay to attach without violating the NFA.
You'll never be fined or do time for recording ALL & EVERY C&R eligible firearm in your C&R book. Why tweak the nose
Here's one for ya. Let's say I sell one of my C&R guns that was purchased before I got my 03FFL. Obviously they are not in my bound book, but I have to record the disposition. So I have an entry with a disposition but no aquisition? Or do I enter it into the book as aquired from myself on the same day I dispose of it? I don't want to backdate the aquisition to when I originally bought it, plus I don't have the necessary details... Or do I just put a notation that the gun was aquired before I had a license?
(I doubt that I will ever sell anything)
(I doubt that I will ever sell anything)
Totally agree with you there, but, according to those ATF people I spoke to, the 4473 negates the "purpose" of the 03 license, and the "no special privileges and rights" clause comes into play, making you John Q. Public.
I might add that the I.O. supervisor stated that "..we wish you would enter them into your records, but, legally, you don't have to..." (That surprised me a little bit, on one hand, but, on the other hand, their attitude didn't.)
Also, the status of the gun does not change from C&R to "modern" per se; It's HOW you acquired the gun that determines whether or not you have to enter it, and, while virtually every other means of acquisition requires that you enter it, in this one instance, it does not (according to the 4 people I spoke to).
Again, they are saying that, if you did NOT use your license to acquire the firearm (and had to do it on a 4473), it is your private personal property and not an 03 acquisition and therefore need not go in the bound book. I assume this is the same principal that allows an 01 FFL to make a purchase on a 4473 and not have to enter it into his books.
At any rate, I am going to submit this whole mess to ATF this week and get something in writing. I will be very curious to see what they say.
Something only semi-related here, but there are a couple of guns on the C&R list that surprised me, and, had I not just accidentally come across them while looking for something else, I would have never known they were C&Rs. It would be very possible for an 03 to purchase them in a gun store on a 4473 with both parties thinking they were "modern" guns.
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