00 Buck or #1 ???

I don't worry about the Hell's Angels, they may be a little noisy and rowdy but with several interfaces I've had with them communication sufficed. In fact during the Rodney King riots I asked them to keep the peace in a section of Hollywood (which they did a GREAT job of) in exchange for me arranging for a safe and secure place for all the bikes.

HOWEVER... at one time I lived in an area where predators on high performance dirt bikes had made a few terrorizing, maraudings of the local farm areas. They had come in fast from many directions and looted some small farms -- taking all and loading into a couple of trucks that followed them.

Some of the local boys somehow found out where they were from went to see them early one morning and "talked" them out of coming out to the country any more.

Before that happened though I bought a few dozen rounds of 12 gauge flares from the Ship's Supply store -- for just in case. The flares had an accurate range of about 95 yards with an ounce of phosphorous! After the 95 yards or so they began an erratic course for the next 80 to 100 yards. They were about $3 each for the flares as I recall.

I bought the flares based on the premise that bikers LOVE the bikes they ride. I felt that the psychological factor of white phosphorous bouncing and splashing amongst them and the bikes might be discouraging to them.

I went out to a neighboring farm of ours at the time and with permission I fired a couple of the flares into a scrap heap of metal that the farmer had for miscellaneous repairs. I was well impressed by the splashing of the phosphorous into the metal pile when it hit. I fired one of the flares into a bale of wet hay and then cut open the hay -- it had penetrated about a foot or so and had charred an area about the size of a softball in the wet hay.

AND I got a couple of hundred-round spiral magazines for my .22 rifle so I could bother them a lot more if there were a bunch of them. Yes, I had some auto-loading rifles and large magazines in larger calibers and some of those fast loaders filled with 00 Buck and slugs for my Bennelli shot guns too -- but we all make our choices based on our own experiences and familiarities. So I decided on the flares and .22s and was very happy that some of my distant neighbors "talked" the dirt bikers out of coming back. In fact the bikers "gave" all the bikes to the farm boys who loaded them up gratefully and brought them back where they were sold for parts and the money went to help the farmers who had been victimized. As far as I know the police were never involved -- just neighbors helping neighbors... ;)

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Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
 
I don't worry about the Hell's Angels, they may be a little noisy and rowdy but with several interfaces I've had with them communication sufficed. In fact during the Rodney King riots I asked them to keep the peace in a section of Hollywood (which they did a GREAT job of) in exchange for me arranging for a safe and secure place for all the bikes.

HOWEVER... at one time I lived in an area where predators on high performance dirt bikes had made a few terrorizing, maraudings of the local farm areas. They had come in fast from many directions and looted some small farms -- taking all and loading into a couple of trucks that followed them.

Some of the local boys somehow found out where they were from went to see them early one morning and "talked" them out of coming out to the country any more.

Before that happened though I bought a few dozen rounds of 12 gauge flares from the Ship's Supply store -- for just in case. The flares had an accurate range of about 95 yards with an ounce of phosphorous! After the 95 yards or so they began an erratic course for the next 80 to 100 yards. They were about $3 each for the flares as I recall.

I bought the flares based on the premise that bikers LOVE the bikes they ride. I felt that the psychological factor of white phosphorous bouncing and splashing amongst them and the bikes might be discouraging to them.

I went out to a neighboring farm of ours at the time and with permission I fired a couple of the flares into a scrap heap of metal that the farmer had for miscellaneous repairs. I was well impressed by the splashing of the phosphorous into the metal pile when it hit. I fired one of the flares into a bale of wet hay and then cut open the hay -- it had penetrated about a foot or so and had charred an area about the size of a softball in the wet hay.

AND I got a couple of hundred-round spiral magazines for my .22 rifle so I could bother them a lot more if there were a bunch of them. Yes, I had some auto-loading rifles and large magazines in larger calibers and some of those fast loaders filled with 00 Buck and slugs for my Bennelli shot guns too -- but we all make our choices based on our own experiences and familiarities. So I decided on the flares and .22s and was very happy that some of my distant neighbors "talked" the dirt bikers out of coming back. In fact the bikers "gave" all the bikes to the farm boys who loaded them up gratefully and brought them back where they were sold for parts and the money went to help the farmers who had been victimized. As far as I know the police were never involved -- just neighbors helping neighbors... ;)

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Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
 
I would recomend either Single-O or #1. Shawn Dodson on his website makes a good case for #1. Ayoob also makes a good case for #1 in several of his articles. Both of their reasonnings are logical so #1 is probably a good bet, but if you can't get #1 in your area, use Single-O because it's closer to #1 than OO, and since you cannot get #2.
 
I recall an FBI agent who was teaching an instructor's class giving a good case for #4 buck. IMO, all of it will work fine under the distance constraints, I still think one should pattern some in their weapons and get what shoots the tightest.

BTW, smaller buck oft patterns tighter than 00, but the FBI stuff ran looser in the 870 I used for the school.
 
I read on some website; I think it might have been firearmstactical.com that the choice for buckshot is #1. The reasoning was greater incapacitating wound possibilities with the 30 cal. #1 buck; greater number of pellets with enough weight to penetrate adequately.

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NRA Life Member
 
Dave no need for the marines just one Flamethrower (the ultimate close range gun)

As to the handgun preferance over the shotgun I remember a test of handgun and shotgun "masters class shooters" from ready position, and holster for the handguns, the shotguns won everytime.
As to large pellet count 3" no.4 with 41 pellets just one should do it. If you are very close and dont want to penetrate the walls much maybe rock salt. A buddy of mine shot a 3/4" piece of plywood at about a yard and the rat hole was impressive, and the shot that left was just a bunch of powder on his fireplace (the garage side).

If you need more power to penetrate 3" 000 will get through most and retain energy farther out than all the rest. Past 25 yards would definityly prefer slugs over handgun.
 
We may be splitting hairs here, in debates about the best size. Southern deer hunters have led the search for improvements in Buck peformance. ALL buck now patterns much better than it used to. Buffering, load development,
rounder shot,harder or plated shot, have all helped the patterns stay tight. Shooting old buck, say 1960s or 70s vintage, shows just how far we've come.

The key is just like slug research. Buy a bunch of those little 5 packs of varied brands and sizes, test it, and then buyamessa whatever works best for its specified mission.

Anything requiring ranges past 15 yards, I'd prefer big pellets. Inside, it all hits like a solid projectile anyway,so maybe a 00 or 000 load for when one may have to go outside,(like in civil disturbances, catastrophes) and maybe bird shot inside to cut down on penetration.....
 
I did some research for my Department and found the Federal Premium 12 pellet 00 Buck (2 3/4") to be both the most effective and the best patterning of all loads tested. It was very impressive.

Dave T
PCSD Ret
 
Dave, how many shotguns did you use in that test? IME, each one may "Prefer" a different load.Some loads do do better than others overall, but hardnfast results are slippery.

In a perfect world, each dept would ISSUE a shotgun,correctly stocked,to an officer who would test for the best ammo for that weapon and then use it....
 
Outside the home in a defense situation against a small bunched-up crowd of angry, drunk, stoned thugs (such as when the bar across the street would empty out and come en-masse over to help their buddy bust windows or break heads - as perhaps in Seattle or LA during the riots) THEN I would want as many 9-pellet 000 buck 3" loads as the magazine could hold. A possibly better choice would be an AK with a two-hundred round drum or a few grenades BUT given that I'm limited to a shotgun, then I want to engage them at 20 yards with enough penetration and spread to have adequate effect (12 pellet 00 buck 3" Sellier&Bellot would effect a broader pattern, but potential overpenetration of 000 buck pellets would NOT be a disadvantage with such a mob).
 
I've experimented with EVERY size of buckshot in both reloads and factory cartridges. From 7 feet to 150 yds.! I've come to the same conclusion as the commercial ammo manufacturers. The 9 x pellet 00Buck "tactical load" is the way to go in the 12ga. A "scaled down" load of 9 x #1 Buck, would be my choice for the 20ga. Unfortunately this is not available in a factory load.

Regards! DaMan
 
DaveMacc,

I first used my personal 870. Then tried the same tests with several departmental 870, one High Standard and an 1897 Winchester Riot Gun.

Since retiring I've used it in my M3S90 (my current defensive shotgun) and another 870. It has consistantly patterned better than the Federal Premium 9 pellet load and both of those will outshoot most other 00 Buck loads I've tried.

Dave T
PCSD Ret
 
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