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Metalurgy quality of the Canik TP9?
- Thread starter Recoil spring
- Start date
wild cat mccane
New member
You can doubt Canik though. They state two different finishes on the same pistol. One is 100xs more thick than the other.
Between their two US websites, multiple TP9 series are listed as phosphate and nitrade finishes. The nitrade finish is listed at Tenifer which is a proprietary blend. NO way is Canik using Tenifer. No. Way. No. How. That is a straight lie on their website.
Maker:
https://www.canikarms.com/en/series/tp-series
http://www.canikusa.com/tp9sf-elite/
What is Tenifer (trademark):
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0257897206007766
Tenifer is a German. Is Canik German? No. So Canik is straight lying on their website. Nitrade salt bath? Maybe, but who knows. Tenifer? Absolutely not.
https://www.finishing.com/324/69.shtml
For those more interested, Tenifer is not outlawed in the US by the EPA. It's purely a trademarked process:
Kolene paper on the QPQ process at http://www.finishing.com/library/qpq/
Between their two US websites, multiple TP9 series are listed as phosphate and nitrade finishes. The nitrade finish is listed at Tenifer which is a proprietary blend. NO way is Canik using Tenifer. No. Way. No. How. That is a straight lie on their website.
Maker:
https://www.canikarms.com/en/series/tp-series
http://www.canikusa.com/tp9sf-elite/
What is Tenifer (trademark):
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0257897206007766
Tenifer is a German. Is Canik German? No. So Canik is straight lying on their website. Nitrade salt bath? Maybe, but who knows. Tenifer? Absolutely not.
https://www.finishing.com/324/69.shtml
For those more interested, Tenifer is not outlawed in the US by the EPA. It's purely a trademarked process:
Kolene paper on the QPQ process at http://www.finishing.com/library/qpq/
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Tenifer is a PROCESS.
wild cat mccane
New member
A trademarked process. Ie Tenifer (TM).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evonik_Industries#Historical_significance Owned by RAG. Originally Degussa of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferritic_nitrocarburizing
The process could be the same, but it is totally wrong (probably illega?) that Canik is saying it is "Tenifer." It is not. It could be (probably not) the same process though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evonik_Industries#Historical_significance Owned by RAG. Originally Degussa of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferritic_nitrocarburizing
The process could be the same, but it is totally wrong (probably illega?) that Canik is saying it is "Tenifer." It is not. It could be (probably not) the same process though.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Why would you not think they are having Tenifer done? Why don't you ask them?
The BHP was not designed to have a dovetailed rear sight.
Moving the sight back just a little probably would have prevented that crack.
This statement is misleading. The BHP was not originally designed with a front dovetail but they have had a factory cut, FN/Browning, dovetail since the introduction of the MKIII around 1989. The FN/Browning guns and other clones do not have a problem with slides cracking in this area. Thousands upon thousands of pre MKIIIs have had front dovetails installed by people like Novak, C&S and other BHP smiths. The fact that this Tias cracked in that area is 100% a metallurgy issue. Also there have been a lot of verified reports of broken extractors, firing pin retaining plates and at least 2 cracked frames on these new Tias BHPs. All were fixed or replaced and the distributor has acknowledged heat treating and metallurgical issues as the cause.
To the OP the Turks have a long history of manufacturing guns and throughout their history consudtency if metallurgy has never been their strong suit. IMHO
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Misleading? Perhaps.
Or, perhaps the differences in casting and forging, heat treating, tolerances, usage, and other factors are involved.
Some pistol parts are made of zinc- is that a "metallurgy" issue, or a design/manufacturing issue?
My point is that wear patterns, damage, etc. can be caused by a myriad of other issues, and "soft steel" and "hard steel," 4140 steel, O-1 steel, 1095 steel all look the same.
Wear patterns seldom have much to do with metallurgy, and more to do with other factors.
Or, perhaps the differences in casting and forging, heat treating, tolerances, usage, and other factors are involved.
Some pistol parts are made of zinc- is that a "metallurgy" issue, or a design/manufacturing issue?
My point is that wear patterns, damage, etc. can be caused by a myriad of other issues, and "soft steel" and "hard steel," 4140 steel, O-1 steel, 1095 steel all look the same.
Wear patterns seldom have much to do with metallurgy, and more to do with other factors.
Folks concerned about this can go here and take a look at other discussions of this topic...
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/ammo-sales-info/
Cylinder and Slide has done work with the Tisas guns.
https://cylinder-slide.com/index.ph...rchp&ecom--prodsearch--string=tisas&SUBMIT=Go
You can also look at this review:
https://bhspringsolutions.com/index...l-review-of-the-tisas-regent-br9-hp-hi-power/
A 6,000 round test of the Tisas Regent
https://bhspringsolutions.com/index.php/tisas-regent-br9-6000-round-tisas-regent-br9-hi-power-test/
tipoc
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/ammo-sales-info/
Cylinder and Slide has done work with the Tisas guns.
https://cylinder-slide.com/index.ph...rchp&ecom--prodsearch--string=tisas&SUBMIT=Go
You can also look at this review:
https://bhspringsolutions.com/index...l-review-of-the-tisas-regent-br9-hp-hi-power/
A 6,000 round test of the Tisas Regent
https://bhspringsolutions.com/index.php/tisas-regent-br9-6000-round-tisas-regent-br9-hi-power-test/
tipoc
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It is misleading because your statement that it is a dovetail issue is 100% false. Look at what you posted.Misleading? Perhaps.
Or, perhaps the differences in casting and forging, heat treating, tolerances, usage, and other factors are involved.
Some pistol parts are made of zinc- is that a "metallurgy" issue, or a design/manufacturing issue?
My point is that wear patterns, damage, etc. can be caused by a myriad of other issues, and "soft steel" and "hard steel," 4140 steel, O-1 steel, 1095 steel all look the same.
Wear patterns seldom have much to do with metallurgy, and more to do with other factors.
The BHP was not designed to have a dovetailed rear sight.
Moving the sight back just a little probably would have prevented that crack.
It has no bearing on the fact that slide cracked. The dovetail did not cause that issue a poorly forged/cast/heat treated slide did. Your statement would mislead someone to think this is not a metal issue. You were wrong simply admit it. You did not talk about differences in metallurgy you said the location of the dovetail was to blame. You are wrong.
In the end the problem with Turkish guns is inconsistency from one gun to another. One production run to another. Some will be great others will fail catastrophically prematurely. The real problem is that you don't know which one you bought.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Perhaps.
Perhaps if the dovetail were a little smaller, the slide wouldn't have cracked-perhaps not.
My point is that no one can look at steel and tell if it's "soft" or not, and they blame "metallurgy" for things that have nothing to do with metallurgy. I have heard the "---- guns have soft steel" line so much that it really bugs me.
Perhaps if the dovetail were a little smaller, the slide wouldn't have cracked-perhaps not.
My point is that no one can look at steel and tell if it's "soft" or not, and they blame "metallurgy" for things that have nothing to do with metallurgy. I have heard the "---- guns have soft steel" line so much that it really bugs me.
In post #9 Mr. Bolo posted a pic of a Tisas with the crack in the slide coming from the dovetail for the front sight. It's a pic that can be found in at least one other thread on another forum. Pics like this one make the rounds.
I don't know what caused that crack and I doubt that anyone here does for certain either. I read a post from a person who posted that it was their gun and that first an extractor broke and then the slide cracked. OK. They also posted that Tisas replaced the slide and the extractor for them at no cost.
One of the most popular themes of pics on the internet is of guns with broken slides, frames, etc. No gun company has been immune to that. It may be that Turkish made firearms, at least from some Turkish companies, are more prone to inconsistency in their heat treatment etc. Maybe.
But knowing what the heat treatment and the metallurgy of the guns made by any company is supposed to be, in advance, on their website, won't tell you anything at all about the gun that you get. Except that it isn't supposed to crack under normal use. If it does return it and get it fixed. No magic to that.
Glock has good heat treating of their metal and good steel. But for years they had cracks showing in the breech faces of their pistols. This was because they had a rectangular striker and the opening for that striker in the breech face was also rectangular and with sharp edges to it. Sharp edges on the corners of an opening on a surface that was stressed each time a shot was fired. Any machinist could have told them this was a bad idea and a design flaw. I did. But for years (over a decade I believe) they let that go on. They replaced a good many slides that they did not need to. Eventually they got around to modifying that hole.
tipoc
I don't know what caused that crack and I doubt that anyone here does for certain either. I read a post from a person who posted that it was their gun and that first an extractor broke and then the slide cracked. OK. They also posted that Tisas replaced the slide and the extractor for them at no cost.
One of the most popular themes of pics on the internet is of guns with broken slides, frames, etc. No gun company has been immune to that. It may be that Turkish made firearms, at least from some Turkish companies, are more prone to inconsistency in their heat treatment etc. Maybe.
But knowing what the heat treatment and the metallurgy of the guns made by any company is supposed to be, in advance, on their website, won't tell you anything at all about the gun that you get. Except that it isn't supposed to crack under normal use. If it does return it and get it fixed. No magic to that.
Glock has good heat treating of their metal and good steel. But for years they had cracks showing in the breech faces of their pistols. This was because they had a rectangular striker and the opening for that striker in the breech face was also rectangular and with sharp edges to it. Sharp edges on the corners of an opening on a surface that was stressed each time a shot was fired. Any machinist could have told them this was a bad idea and a design flaw. I did. But for years (over a decade I believe) they let that go on. They replaced a good many slides that they did not need to. Eventually they got around to modifying that hole.
tipoc
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wild cat mccane
New member
Canik is not Tisa...
After fixing a firing pin issue on the TP9 series and an issue with the Elite not functioning without +P, the Canik TP9 guns are fine.
The finish is probably not worth the 100 bucks or less than the more refined Walthers Canik copies in the P99QA, P99AS, PPQ, and PPQ Q5.
Admittedly the TP9 SFL and the 5" PPQ are duplicates. The TP9SFX copies the PPQ Q5 which is a lot more expensive than the TP9SFX, but the Q5 has no enhancements over the 5" PPQ except two addition cuts in the slide. I bet most TP9SFX owners aren't mounting red dots either. So the PPQ 5 at 469 at gunbuyer.com is the better deal than the TP9SFX at 430.
After fixing a firing pin issue on the TP9 series and an issue with the Elite not functioning without +P, the Canik TP9 guns are fine.
The finish is probably not worth the 100 bucks or less than the more refined Walthers Canik copies in the P99QA, P99AS, PPQ, and PPQ Q5.
Admittedly the TP9 SFL and the 5" PPQ are duplicates. The TP9SFX copies the PPQ Q5 which is a lot more expensive than the TP9SFX, but the Q5 has no enhancements over the 5" PPQ except two addition cuts in the slide. I bet most TP9SFX owners aren't mounting red dots either. So the PPQ 5 at 469 at gunbuyer.com is the better deal than the TP9SFX at 430.
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