your thoughts... what "could" be the most efficient cartridge, yet still acceptable..

M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
... for self defense...

just for fun, & purely academically speaking...

lately I've been on a most definite "non magnum" kick, with some "fun" guns... with my custom Blackhawk in 25 ACP, & my 51 Navy conversion cartridge guns... I've been loading, & scaling up the tiniest of charges... in the 38 Long Colt, the guns are the limiting factor, & there is much air space left in the case...

Last night, I started thinking, if we had an even more extreme component shortage, than this last one, some time in the future, & buying ammo, bullets, & powder were more difficult than it has been the last couple years... what would be the most efficient ( powder charge, bullet weight or caliber, etc... ) that would still produce at least a reasonably effective self defense round... I'm thinking at least to start, about lead bullets, as they could be cast from other sources, & not need to be purchased

I'm personally thinking this would be a balance of attainable velocity, combined with a minimum acceptable bullet weight... semi auto rounds don't often cycle reliably with reduced charges, but perhaps a heavier bullet might help, but again, I'm thinking a revolver would be the most practical weapon...

again, my thoughts on most "efficient" might be a reduced charge 44 special or 45 Colt, with a heavy bullet... to defend my thoughts, the weight of the heavier bullet will retain more energy, & penetrate deeper at reduced velocities...

but I expect if we were to use a set amount of penetration as the determining factor of "acceptable" bullet shape & sectional density might factor in, & charge for charge, perhaps 40 caliber would penetrate deeper, or 38, or 32???

your thoughts ???
 
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IMO the 9x19 or 9mm Parabellum is perhaps the most efficient handgun cartridge ever designed. For its compact size it gets very good velocity with effective bullets. The 38 Super will beat it but the Super uses a larger case thus requiring a pistol with a larger frame to accommodate the cartridge. A 9mm gun can be made very nearly as small as the 380 guns.

I routine carry a 9mm S&W loaded with ammo using a 115 JHP with muzzle velocity of around 1,200 FPS and I feel quite comfortable with it.

I wouldn't call a 44 Special or 45 Colt "efficient" in any way. They both use cases that are too big for use with modern powders. Efficient means making the most with the least. Perhaps we have different definitions of the word?
 
I'm not sure if I understand the question. I'm thinking you are asking what round would be "most effective, being available, or cheapest (if you will) to load for making the most of components".

Or maybe, what to store so you can always shoot.

I'm thinking the 38 spl. using cast bullets and Bullseye powder. Bullseye gives you more "bang for the buck" meaning you get more shots per pound.

38 cases are plentiful and can be reloaded quite a bit, depending on how you flair the case, almost indefinitely, plus you don't loose them in the grass and snow banks like semis. They are forgiving as to bullet type, meaning the gun doesn't normally jam if they don't like the bullet shape.

Bullseye powder is more forgiving in large cases, it doesn't care if there is a bunch of un-used space, it still works and is still accurate.

One of the most accurate pistol/revolver cases out there is the 38 Spl, WC using 2.7 gr of Bulleye.

Its cost about half the price to shoot bullseye as some powders that fill the case.

Take a look at the standard 38. That would be a 158 gr bullet at 850 fps. You get 2000 rounds out of a pound of powder.

Primers are a fix cost, since regardless of the round you pick, its going to need primers.

If one works a bit, lead can be had for nothing, so you can cast your bullets.

38s are about the cheapest shooting there is. The above load would cost about 5 cents a piece. Powder .013 ($26 per lb) and primers .037 ($37 per 1000). With a supply of bass, and free cast bullets.

So if components become scarce, put your money into 38s w/bullseye to allow you to keep shooting.
 
I think it goes to .38spl as well.
You don't have to pick your brass from the ground like you do with 9mm in a semi-auto pistol. You can also use cheap reduced-power loads with no reliability issues in a revolver.
 
SAXXON... I don't load that much of 9mm, though I have several, & perhaps it's most "efficient" ( that's why I posed the question ) but why would 9mm be more efficient than a 380???

However I think KRAIG has followed up my question more along the lines I was looking for...

... along those same lines, Unique is a very universal loading powder albeit not very easy to measure using a powder measure...

I'm curious if reduced charges were used ( out of necessity, or lack of replacement powder ), if a .356 / .357 bullet would penetrate deeper in their normal bullet weights, or if a larger bore / heavier bullet would in general penetrate deeper with the same charge, or just slightly more, at a slower velocity ??? is muzzle energy an effective measuring tool ???

... & while a lot of the croud may poo poo the 32 caliber cartridges, perhaps they may still have enough velocity with what would be a reduced charge in the 38 or larger calibers, to penetrate deeper???

some of my defense of the bigger calibers might be from meplat size, if the velocities get slow enough, that a hollow point might not expand... there might be a point where a 7" deep 45 caliber hole is more "wounding", than a 9" deep 32 caliber hole ( just for example )
 
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The 9mm delivers velocity and energy that are beyond the case difference compared to the 380. A 115 at 1200 is way beyond the 90 at 1000 the 380 delivers but the 9 isn't that much larger. That's why I say the 9 is "efficient" because its performance is out of line with its compact size. The 38 Special compares to the 9 in performance but the 38's case is much longer.

This photo shows the 9mm case to be only slightly longer than the 380 but the performance difference is much bigger.

standard.jpg
 
My mind immediately goes to cartridges such as the old .41 Short Colt or the .44 S&W Russian.

I'm assuming I would be allowed to modernize the round and the revolver for such conjecture?

Sort of modernize a small single action such as the Colt Cloverleaf or the spur trigger S&W revolvers.

Bob Wright
 
I have a bunch that I like that are versatile but if I had to pick one that is cheap to load, accurate but has power enough for hunting/self defense, etc; it would be hard to beat the 327 magnum. From super accurate target loads using 32 S&W Long cases with 1.5 grains of powder and a 98 WC to a 113 cast gas check bullet that will deliver over 650 ft/lbs of energy; it covers a wide range of uses.
 
Talking about minimal use of components while still being adequate for defense, I would vote for 380.

There is no reason that any human walking cannot be stopped by it with a few decently placed shots. Deer are built about as dense as the average human in my area and I have seen them run 100yds through woods and swamp after taking a 270 into the boiler room and out the opposite shoulder due to a quartering shot and the funny things bullets do when they pass through a non-paper target. The hide was the only thing holding the exit side leg on.

I know that seems like I am breaking my own argument, but I mention it to illustrate just how badly a person/animal can be mortally wounded and still have plenty of fight in them. And I make that point to make the case that 1200fps with a 9mm compared to 900fps with a 380 is not going to be the difference of a 1 shot stoppage and emptying the mag center mass and still having to run. Sure it's going to be better, no denying that. But even plugging an attacker in the chest 1 time with a 44mag is not a guaranteed 1 shot stop 100% of the time.

Going off memory if I recall correctly, my 90gr XTP 380 loads are pushed by about 4.5gr of Unique. And again if I recall, starting loads in the 3gr range. Not sure how much more of a powder miser you will find than that being you can load around 2000 rounds with a single pound of powder. Although probably not as abundant as 9mm, 380 brass is still readily available for cheap.

Pretty sure lead boolits are available for it, so I would assume one could cast his own??

I have seen round nosed lead used in 45 Auto... I haven't stepped into the world of all lead projectiles yet, so I am fully prepared to stand corrected if I am wrong.
 
I'm thinking at least to start, about lead bullets, as they could be cast from other sources, & not need to be purchased
Click to expand...

38 Spcl. 158gr LSWCHP.
Universal
Easy to load
Multiple firearms chambered for it
Acceptable performance with a relatively small charge
Can be loaded to +P pressures for enhanced performance in appreciate guns.
Revolver cartridge, no worry about cast bullet loads functioning properly
 
9 mm in a semi-auto. .38 Special in a revolver; both with appropriate JHP loads in a suitable handgun that fits your hand. Rod
 
All your answers are wrong

Black powder or BP substitute has been the only powder that can be counted on if it really hits the fan again. Where can one not find charcoal, sulphur possasium nitrate that they can not grind their own if they have to?
 
+1 on kraig. The 9mm offers so much for its size, weight and cost. 38 spl is a great round as well, but it's got such a long case that with smokeless powder is largely empty. Costs much more, harder to find and try toting it around in any quantity to speak of.
 
7.62 Tokarev? I mean it can go through Kevlar that would stop a 9mm in its tracks. Plus it's got very good velocity (With Wolf I've heard 1,500). Penetration and expansion are superb. Yep, I'm going to be the oddball here and say 7.62x25 Tokarev. :P
 
I've been a diehard .45 guy forever, so it pains me to say that...gulp..9MM might be the round.

If I can put the money together I've got my eye on a Blackhawk convertable in 9 and .357.
 
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