your opinion on this 586-2; "worn in", or "worn out"?

[Safestuffer]

I have little experience with this, so far I've been lucky with my used gun purchases. I appreciate any advice from wiser people than myself

I have a 6 inch 586-2 that I love, and I have been looking for a decent 4 inch 586 shooter that is a bit easier to carry.
I found another 4" 586-2 that looked to be pretty much perfect for what I wanted.

4 inch, round butt for my short little fingers, and I even like the front sight modification. It looks to be in decent shape, certainly a shooter. It was an auction gun with pretty good pictures, and I got it for what I thought was a pretty good price considering the front sight, grips, and level of wear. The bore was described as "excellent".

Long story short, my FFL/LGS is on vacation and closed this month but I got lucky when the gun came in while the manager was in doing paperwork so he called me and let me in to do the transfer the last 10 minutes he was there...so I didn't really have the time to do a lot of inspection. I checked and the gun locked up tight and functioned well. I was expecting the obvious flaws such as the scratched ejector rod and replacement dovetailed front sight.

I got home and gave it a better inspection and started getting depressed.
The first thing I noticed was this.

Ugh. Is it just me or is that a lot of erosion on that forcing cone? I have a few .357 revolvers, some fairly heavily shot both by me and by the prior owners, and this is the first time I've seen this much damage.
I turn the gun over and see this.

I mean...dang. I know that's just cosmetic, but Again, that's by far and above the worst flame cutting I've personally seen on a .357.

Now mind you, the gun locks up find with no end shake and maybe just a bit more than normal side to side play, but I noticed when the cylinder is open it has far more back and forth slop than my other 586.

And here is the cylinder stud/stop on the newer 4 inch 586. It has been worn down to a ramp and allows for a lot of play in the cylinder when open.

I can't get a picture, but when I look down the bore, the first inch or two of rifling past the forcing cone definitely looks to have rounded edges compared to the rest, and the first half inch or so looks kind of wavy like it is heavily and irregularly worn.

Oh, and it has the "M" stamp for the recall...but its a 586-2...so I thought by the -2 the problem had been fixed, so why would S&W need to do the work on it?

So...what do you all think? Is this thing worn in, or clapped out?
I have yet to shoot it, but at this point I'm thinking that if it needs a new barrel and work on the cylinder stop I'm better off not shooting it so when my FFL opens again in July I can maybe send it back for a refund.
I'm into it for $450, and IMO that's about $150 too much as it sits.
Sad...I actually really like this gun.

 

[Slopemeno]

My guess is that this is some indoor range ex-rental gun. I rented a Redhawk that was significantly *worse* than that 586- but it still shot great.

I'd return that one if you have the opportunity.

 

[hAkron]

I think the top strap flame cutting gets to a certain point and then never gets any worse. The forcing cone looks pretty bad, but I would try shooting it to see if it's only a cosmetic problem.

 

[Sevens]

I'm of the camp that you should shoot it and see how it runs. While I'm not saying that I would rush out to pay $450 for that example, I can tell you that finding a 586-2 in 4-inch guise and in FAR better shape for $450 is just not happening in the circles I travel.

I can see your frustration and I'm on board with that, but at $450, I wouldn't be feeling gypped.

I'd agree that it looks like it may have been a gun rental. That's a lot of heavy use. If anything, I'm probably more annoyed with the moron-induced damage on the ejector rod than the heavy use, beat-up forcing cone and flame cutting.

 

[Bezoar]

that ejector rod makes me say expect more issues with it.

 

[highpower3006]

If it bothers you too much send it back to the seller. They should have pointed out the wear in their description and their failure to do so should be grounds for a refund.

Send it back to Smith and Wesson for a mechanical overhaul if you think you are going to have issues with it and decide to keep it. Looks to me like it could indeed be a former rental gun. The only thing that I would worry about is the wear in the cylinder stop stud. I believe they are replaceable, so it should be a repairable problem. I don't think the forcing cone/top strap erosion will be an issue. I will say that there has been a LOT of .357 rounds through that gun.

 

[g.willikers]

I'd keep it, unless something serious shows up when you try it out.
A similar one sold locally for $350 and I would have happily bought it if it hadn't already been sold.
And really, what's $100 buy these days.
586s are kind of scarce.
New ones list for over $800.

 

[jglsprings]

You want a $750.00 for $450.00 (don't we all?) It seems to be in the condition I'd expect for that price. If you don't like it or think you have been taken - send it back. If you can.

I haven't seen a used 586 available in any condition for so long I'd have snarfed that up in a heartbeat.

I think with a little elbow grease it will clean up nice.

P.S.

If you don't want to keep it PM me and maybe we can make a deal.

 

[old bear]

your opinion on this 586-2; "worn in", or "worn out"?

Safe, from your photos I think a number of your issues are cosmetic. The flame cutting is about as deep as it will ever get, so that should not be a problem. I really think the erosion around the forcing cone is lead build up. Just look at the lead smears on the top-strap, and the area to the left of the forcing cone on the frame, and directly inside the barrel.

Give your new 586 a good deep cleaning. then Use a Lewis lead remover in the barrel and forcing cone. Then start with some lead-A-Way cloths to start removing the lead splatter. If a Lead-A-Way cloth does not work get yourself a set of dental picks. These are to be used to "chip" away the lead build up. Be careful when using these, as they can put a nasty scratch in the revolvers finish, or take a nasty hunk out of your hide.

When you have gotten all the lead out, no pun intended, re-clean then apply a thin coat of wax and you should have a decent shooter.

P.s.

As a VERY SERIOUS S&W collector told me once. "Never buy a gun you have to make excuses for.

 

[hAkron]

Be VERY careful with lead away cloth. It could also be called 'blue away'.

 

[Webleymkv]

There's really nothing there that couldn't be fixed, the question is how much more time and effort are you willing to put into the gun? The flame cutting in the topstrap isn't something I would worry too much about as it looks like it was caused primarily by someone shooting a large number of "flamethrower" loads with light bullets and maximum or near maximum charges of slow-burning powder like H110 or Winchester 296. So long as you don't plan on shooting a lot of "flamethrower" loads, I doubt it will get worse and, as it is now, it shouldn't adversely affect the function of the gun so I wouldn't worry about it.

Likewise, the forcing cone erosion, if it is indeed erosion and not leading as was previously suggested, was also likely caused by the previous owner's choice of ammunition. It may or may not affect accuracy but if it does, S&W can re-cut the forcing cone and set the barrel back a bit in the frame to achieve the correct barrel to cylinder gap.

I don't really see how the cylinder stop/stud would adversely affect the function of the gun, but it is something of an eye sore. As has been previously mentioned, that should be replaceable but doing so would likely require the gun to be refinished which would increase the cost of the repair.

I currently have a M28-2 at S&W for replacement of the hammer stud, reblueing, and recutting of the forcing cone and the total price for those repairs is about $350. I would anticipate approximately the same cost for recutting the forcing cone, replacement of the cylinder stop/stud, and reblueing of your revolver so the question you need to ask yourself is whether or not this revolver is worth investing another $350 in.

It is worth it to me for my M28, but my revolver has particular sentimental value (it was my first revolver) and I paid substantially less for it than you did for your 586. Also, your revolver may very well be a fine shooter, albeit cosmetically challenged, just as it is while my M28 was rendered non-functional by the broken hammer stud. If it doing so would not void any inspection/return policy from the party you purchased the gun from, I would advise you to see how the revolver shoots in its current condition before making a decision.

 

[Safestuffer]

Well,
I like this revolver too much to send back.
I sold a few pairs of some old pachmayr take-off grips on ebay recently, and got stuck with some funds on paypal.
Put that to use and picked up another 4" barrel, frame lug, and extractor rod on ebay for around $100
Hopefully my gunsmith can get the frame lug in without rebluing the frame, if he says he can't...well, we'll see.
This thing will probably see a lot of 158 gr. cast lead and Win 296, so I think she gets a good tune up....no retirement for her yet
I'll take it out and shoot it today, and post results. The 158 grain mold I use casts a little undersize and drops right at .357, so I'm curious if there's enough rifling left for them.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

I'd have been leery of it too but it might turn out to be a hell of a shooter.

I'm curious to see how your range trip with it goes.

 

[Elkins45]

If it shoots I would say you didn't get taken. $450 doesn't buy nearly as much as it used to in the S&W revolver world. I own uglier guns and they shoot just fine.

 

[Safestuffer]

Got it out to the range today,

First I put two cylinders of .357 magnum reloads. 25 yards, rested.
Cast straight wheel weight 158 gr. Keith style swc's dropped at .357 diameter, so a little small...under a near max charge of Blue Dot.

Not a very good group, but a group nonetheless. It leaded horribly too. I can't really complain about this load though, I need to get a mold that drops a .359 bullet and I'll bet that would help a lot.

Next was another two cylinders of handloads, Hornady 158gr. xtp's over 16.5gr. H110. These shot much better, although I got two separate and strangely similar groups instead of one for some reason. Again, 25 yards, rested

I was much happier after this group. At least the rifling is still good for jacketed bullets.

Next I switched to .38 spcl wadcutter handloads, 148gr. lyman wadcutters sized to .358 over 3.8gr. unique. Fired two cylinders, then adjusted the sights up and fired another two cylinders. 25 yards, rested.

Hmm. Not what I was hoping for. Not nearly as much leading, and the first group has a nice tight cluster of 7 shots. However, overall accuracy with WC's was dissapointing... I can get much better accuracy out of my other .357's and .38's with that WC load than either of those groups.

So I interpret this as being a sign that the rifling is too worn to get a good bite on cast lead, but there is still enough there to stabilize jacketed bullets.

Then I ran a couple hundred more .38 loads, a mixture of moderate .38 loads with the same 158 gr. swc's, some pussycat .38 loads with 124gr. .356 cast truncated cone bullets over a lighter charge of unique, more .38 wadcutters, and some more 158gr. swc .357 mag rounds..Some speed drills and some medium to long range plinking at steel.
Overall I really like this gun, the extra weight on the muzzle from the full lug makes it very controllable. By the end of the session I was able to consistently empty all 6 rounds of .38 spcl into a 15" by 15" bullet trap at 25yds literally as fast as I could pull the trigger. .357 was a lot stiffer, but side by side with my sp101 was much more controllable with the same loads, and I was still able to empty the cylinder within 2-3 seconds and get consistent strings of hits.

Interesting side note, you can see some of the back splash from the bullet trap that sprayed back and went back through the target. I have a steel 15"x15" bullet trap I got off of Ebay from some guy custom welding them...This is the first time I shot the trap with a magnum, and dang...it throws more splatter back than a .38. For a $200 steel trap its been a great buy for me though, saves probably 90% of the lead that gets shot into it, and the rest is small enough that it is either stopped by the target taped to the mouth of the trap, or doesn't go very far after it pokes through. Some time I'll have to do a write up on the thing, Its a neat design and I can already see its going to save a lot of my precious WW alloy.

Anyways, what are your thoughts on the condition of the rifling based on what you see? Should I throw the new barrel on it right away, or just get a new set of molds that cast at .359 and see if that fixes my lack of accuracy with lead bullets? What goes out first when a barrel wears, accuracy wise...cast or jacketed?

Thank you all for your insight, its much appreciated.

 

[Webleymkv]

Anyways, what are your thoughts on the condition of the rifling based on what you see? Should I throw the new barrel on it right away, or just get a new set of molds that cast at .359 and see if that fixes my lack of accuracy with lead bullets? What goes out first when a barrel wears, accuracy wise...cast or jacketed?

Before I went to the trouble and expense of replacing the barrel, I'd give the revolver a thorough cleaning first and maybe try some different loads to see what happened. All of my .38 Special and .357 Magnum S&W revolvers seem to do well with cast bullets of .358" diameter so the Blue Dot load you tried is probably, as you suspect, a bit undersized.

If, as I suspect, the previous owner was shooting a lot of "flamethrower" loads, then the barrel might well be leaded pretty badly. Cleaning out a lot of lead can do nothing but improve accuracy. Also, don't neglect the chamber throats as they can have just as much, and sometimes more, effect on accuracy as the condition of the bore.

If, after the above, you still can't get satisfactory groups then replacing the barrel would probably be worthwhile since you're already bought the replacement. The ejector rod is no big deal as they're easy to swap (you can do it yourself in a matter of minutes). Since you've already got a replacement frame lug, I suppose it would be worth checking into swapping if you're having the barrel replaced already. That being said, if you don't wind up replacing the barrel and/or replacing the frame lug would be a lot of trouble/expense, a dab of cold blue on the existing one could probably at least make it less of an eye sore (as I said, I don't see how the current one would affect the function of the revolver).

Something else to consider if you do wind up having to refinish the gun is whether or not you'd want it to remain blued. A finish like hard chrome would be more durable for carry and it's not as though you're trying to preserve collector value at this point anyway.

 

[Safestuffer]

well, I like the feel of the pachmayrs, and they didn't look too bad, but I like wood more. I replaced the grips with a set of hogue grips that I picked up cheap and then sanded down to fit the round butt frame and my hand, and with the new ejector rod it doesn't look too bad

 

[mellow_c]

Looks to me like you found a gun that you can shoot the hell out of without feeling guilty for wearing it out or marring such a perfect example.

It may not be the most accurate revolver you've had, but if it groups consistently and is fun to shoot then your doing well... hopefully the top strap never cracks, just shoot light loads and you'll probably be fine.

If by chance you do run the gun to it's death (Which is still probably a long way off), then take pride in the fact that you were there for the final shots of a nice gun that's earned it's retirement. And if it happens to out live you, then you can laugh and always refer to it as a tough SOB.

For now, I'll say this... it's looking pretty good, and I hope you enjoy it!

 

[44 AMP]

So I interpret this as being a sign that the rifling is too worn to get a good bite on cast lead, but there is still enough there to stabilize jacketed bullets.

My experience is that for rifling to be worn to the point it won't get a good bite on a lead bullet, it has to be worn to the point where you can't see it! (or clogged/coated with something, like lead...)

Now, rifling can be worn to the point where A particular lead bullet does not stabilize well (and we're talking in a clean barrel), but that does not mean NO lead bullet will work.

If you play around with different combinations of bullet diameter, design shape, hardness, and launch velocity, you can almost always find some combination that delivers acceptable, if not good, accuracy.

(note that the load combination that gives the best groups might not be the load you want to use for a given application, but there will be a load that shoots ok, or better. I'm almost positive.

No revolver is "worn out" until the frame is worn beyond its safe service life. Barrels, cylinders, and all other parts can be replaced as needed.

Your gun has clearly seen a lot of use, and looks like some abuse (did someone try to tighten the ejector rod with a vice-grip?)

If I wanted to do the best thing I could for that gun, I'd send it to S&W, and pay whatever it cost (shipping + repairs). You'd get back a gun that will look and run as much like it did when new as they can make it. And they can give you a pretty good estimate of what the gun has been through, and how much of its "standard" service life it has left.

I know money can be important, but, its only money. Every paycheck, you get more. Guns like that S&W no longer grow on trees, and even if they still did, the cost is only going up.

Bite the bullet, so to speak, get it fixed up right. Then spend the rest of your life shooting it, to see if you can wear it as much as it was when you got it!

Seriously, do a thorough job of cleaning all the lead out, and then, start looking at what is, and isn't an accurate load. That gun isn't "pretty" but it looks to be a LONG way from "worn out".

 

[James K]

Were you able to actually get after the leading in the barrel with a Lewis Lead Remover or something like it? IMHO, that is about the ONLY way to get lead out of the forcing cone, barrel and even the chamber throats. Brushes won't do the job.

Jim