You may think this is heresy.

W

Willie Lowman

New member
Yesterday I got to shoot a M1928 Thompson. This was the first time I have pulled the trigger on one. I was not that impressed. I only got to fire 50 rounds through it so I really can't say I got to know the gun. 50 rounds in a subgun is like test driving a car from one parking space into another.

I will say that the stock pretty much sucks. The gun moved on target more than I expected it to. This was a surprise as I am used to the bolt lurch of a Uzi. Another thing I wasn't crazy about was the slot that I had to line the magazines up in.

Recoil was nonexistent and the rate of fire was right around 750, just were I like it.

Bottom line, was it awesome? Yes. Do I want to shoot it again? Yes. Would a Thompson be my first choice for a subgun? No. Would I buy one, given the chance. Yes.

Thompsons are iconic. The are powerful. They are sexy. For the price of one, I'd have two Uzis.
 
I must agree. I am no fan of the Thompson Subgun. For a while, I was very eager to buy a Thompson, but the more I looked at it, the more out of date and antiquated it looked, especially, for a few thousand more, you can get an RR MP5.

Sadly though, because of the Hughes Amendment, the day will arrive when our grandchildren look at our precious MP5s, Uzis, M16s, etc, and think that our NFA guns were from a previous time and totally out of date.

Even now, our NFA machine guns are about 30 years old. Give it another 100 years or when the military replaces the M16 - whichever comes sooner - and the current crop of NFA guns will look antiquated and out of date. It is the ingenious of the Hughes ban: don't confiscate, rather, eliminate and destroy through time and deterioration.
 
Cabela's had a semi-auto Thompson and that is without a doubt the most awkward handling gun I have ever handled. yeah someday I would like to shoot a real one but also nothing to get excited about in my opinion. I'm definitely sure I wouldn't have wanted to carry one across Europe. I think it weighed more than an M-1 or sure seemed like it.
 
When/If I get my first full-auto it will be a Thompson, but I am a WW2 history buff and that gun is one of the 4 guns that we used to stop the Nazis and make the world what it is today. If not for the Thompson, M1 Garand, the 1911 and to a lesser extend the 30 carbine we would all be speaking German and the world would be a very different place. The Nazis would have "purged the lesser races" and there would be little "free thought".

Yeah I like the Thompson!
 
Leaving aside the artificially created price of full auto guns, and looking only at the mechanical features, the Tommy gun is neat. Its also essentially the first generation of SMG.

The ergonomics suck, compared to modern designs. Weep oh fans, tis true. BUT, in its defense, when it was designed, there was no combat experience to tell us what worked best, and what wasn't worth having.

Attitudes were different back then. After all, you have a gun that holds 30 or (gasp) 50 shots, why on earth would it ever be important to reload as fast as possible?

Ever load a tommygun drum? If you haven't you will be both amazed and astounded, and most likely come away asking why the hell did they design it that way?????

The Thompson is antiquated, not even close to the best SMG design in terms of ease of use. But it is HISTORY. Heavy, awkward, warts and all, its still lovely. It was a major stepping stone to get where we are today, and for that, is worthy of love.

Like the Luger and some other iconic guns, its far from good by today's expectations, but it is iconic, one of the most recognized guns in history.
 
A friend of mine bought the new production semi-auto Thompson so I've done a fair bit of shooting with it. For certain, I've never even touched a classic Thompson or any full auto Thompson or any variation of one.

But my experience tells me that the very best thing about THAT gun THESE days is the "cool factor" and you can get that by looking at it when it's sitting somewhere. Like, in it's case.

It's irrationally heavy. It's like picking up a jackhammer. :eek:
And the massive bolt, the massive weight of it and the spring pressure behind it is pure nuts. And they are kind enough to have that razor-sharp knob you must grab to actuate it. The bolt hold-open is difficult at best. The magazines lock in place with a really oddball mag catch.

Just getting the sights on target feels like you oughta have a personal trainer barking at you and reminding you of what you ate last week. :p

Shooting is fun, at least for as long as you can hold the thing up before you tire. Stripping it and cleaning it -WILL- cut you somewhere most of the time. It feels like working on a car engine except all of the parts weigh more.

It kind of seems to me like they made the thing FULL-AUTO so that the user could more quickly empty it and put it down. :D:p
 
I have one of the semi auto Thompsons. Really cool gun, but not a really practical gun.

Virtually without exception, the comment when someone sees it is; "wow, that's cool!", and the comment when someone holds it is; "Holy Crap! I had no idea they were this heavy!!" (or something to that effect..:D)

Mine is the deluxe model, finned barrel, vertical foregrip, Cutts Compensator, and the ladder rear sight. Thanks to Federal law, the barrel is several inches longer than the one on the SMG, which does throw the profile off a bit from the classic standard. I console myself with the thought that the long barrel is my "express" version, giving me more velocity. (the velocity increase with the .45ACP in the longer barrel probably isn't significant - I've never chronographed it - its just something I can pretend is useful;))

I got the semiauto because #1) always wanted a Tommygun, #2) MUCH cheaper than the $20-40,000 dollars a legal full auto one runs, #3) I live in a place where the state essentially prohibits private ownership of full auto firearms.

Bought it used, with 3 stick mags (30rnd), for about half the new MSRP. (and this was over a decade ago). My gun is (most likely) one of the last made before Kahr bought and took over Auto Ordnance. (It came with a Kahr manual, but the gun itself doesn't say Kahr on it, anywhere).

Overall fit and finish is excellent. But it is HEAVY. Over 12 pounds, and with a loaded drum, feels even heavier. You can thank the ATF for the fact that it takes three men, a boy, and a gorilla to cock the gun.

(as I heard it) When the gun was being designed the ATF insisted that it A) fire from the closed bolt, and B) not be "easily convertible to full auto" or they would not approve it. This resulted in a virtually complete redesign of the inside of the gun. Dimensions are approx. 1/4" off from the SMG. SMG parts will not fit inside the semi. Magazines for the semi have to have the catch hole modified to work. Unmodified GI mags won't lock in right.

The closed bolt requirement is what lead to the monster springs used in the semi. You can cock the SMG with two fingers, cocking the semi takes a good grip, and it really helps to brace the butt on something!:eek:

My gun is accurate, and has fed everything so far, ball, LRN, LSWC, and JHP ammo. Others I have spoken with have had nothing but trouble with their gun. I guess its a matter of if you get a good one, you got a good one, and if you don't, it sucks...

I have learned one thing, the top cocking knob, which I always thought was just "in the way" really isn't. (mine isn't sharp edged). What I have found is that it acts like an "express sight". I can dump 30 rnds, at speed onto a plate at 30yds using only the cocking knob and front sight for aiming.

Using the ladder sight, I can routinely ring the 200yd gong on the rifle range. Careful aimed slow fire gives a 5 shot 25yd group of about 2-2.5" inches (one ragged hole). As noted, the biggest challenge with it (once you get it cocked) is holding it up until its empty...:rolleyes:
 
My (limited) experience with the semi-auto Thompson would be just about completely encapsulated by your post right there, 44 AMP. Except for the sharp top cocking knob. This one was also cut through the middle and definitely helped as an "express" sight, and coupled with the long barrel, it was never any trouble hitting a target -- the rifle is accurate. If I had owned it, I would have taken a file or a Dremel to the front of that blasted knob.
 
The reason the semi gun is so hard to cock is that the full auto gun (even when fired semi) is an open bolt design and used what is called advanced primer ignition. That is a fancy way of saying that the gun is designed so that the primer is fired while the bolt is still moving forward and still has its momentum. Thus, the backpressure of the fired round has to overcome not only the mass of the bolt but also its remaining forward momentum. That allows the bolt and its spring to be quite light.

Now everytime I mention API, some physics "expert" claims I am lacking in brains and that such a thing is impossible. I invite anyone about to reply to that effect to 1) learn a bit about the speed at which events happen when a gun is fired and 2) cock a full auto TSMG and compare it with the new semi version.

Jim
 
I've had a turn or two with a full-auto Thompson.

Sometimes.....it's O.K. to have a gun just for fun. The Tommy Gun is the quintessential "fun gun".:D

I'd love to have one.....still waiting on the lottery.
 
Re: Weight of the Thompson

At 10 pounds, it was in the neighborhood of what comparable sub-guns weighed- the PPSh was 8+ pounds, empty ..... but then again, people, and soldiers in particular, were in better shape than the vast majority of keyboard commandos today ..... they worked with their hands, usually 6 days a week, "from kin to kain't" .... they were tougher than most of us sedentary folks ..... ten pound guns were the norm.
 
jimbob86,
An Uzi weighs about 8 pounds. Close to the weight of a Thompson, They aren't exactly featherweight guns. There's a lot to be said for balance.

The M1928 SMG can be cocked with one finger. The sights are quite good. There are a few good reasons why steel plate shooters continue to use Thompsons in competition. There are also plenty of reasons why other competitors use MP5s.
 
An Uzi weighs about 8 pounds.
Click to expand...

I know ..... fired one when we qualified with the Bundeswehr's weapons back in the late 80's .....

My point was that most infantry weapons were pretty hefty, until after WW II .... and folks did not think of them as "heavy" .......
 
The reason the semi gun is so hard to cock is that the full auto gun (even when fired semi) is an open bolt design
Click to expand...

The original bolt design for the Tommygun is rather unique. Besides the "Blish" piece (which was later found to be unnecessary) the bolt does not have a fixed firing pin, or even a firing pin spring as such. There is a pivoting lever (called the "hammer") that strikes the frame and pivots driving the firing pin forward during the last forward movement of the bolt.

These parts (and the extra machining for them) were discarded when the bolt was redesigned to use a fixed firing pin. (M1 & M1A SMGs).

The semi auto gun, with its design of bolt uses a spring powered firing pin. To ready the SMG, you just pull back the bolt. The semi needs to have the firing mechanism cocked, and held when the bolt goes forward, the extra parts, including a fairly stiff spring (that the SMG doesn't even have) means significantly more force is needed to pull the bolt back.
 
I rented one and it was a blast,,,

I rented one and it was a blast,,,
No pun intended.

I remembered what my WW-II vet uncle told me,,,
That the gun rises tremendously on full auto.

He said they were trained to hold it sideways (gansta style?),,,
And let the recoil give you a natural sweep.

I tried it and it worked somewhat.

In the military I shot many newer full auto guns,,,
I've rented many more since I got out.

The Thompson would be my last choice for a real user,,,
But would be close to the top for pure fun.

FN P-90 is my personal favorite so far,,,
But that Tommy Gun is iconic.

Aarond

.
 
I remembered what my WW-II vet uncle told me,,,
That the gun rises tremendously on full auto.
Click to expand...

It has a long standing reputation for doing that, but really, its doesn't. It got this reputation due to the thousands of troops who used them, without being trained to use them the right way. It's easy enough to teach someone to shoot the tommygun, and shoot it well enough, without teaching them about the gun's real behavior.

What happens is that, during full auto fire, the guns recoil essentially balances the guns weight. The gun essentially "floats".

HOWEVER, the muzzle does climb rapidly, because the shooter's arms are still holding up a 12lb gun. This is something most people will not notice. They think it is the recoil lifting the gun, and really, its not. It's them, lifting the gun when the recoil reduces the effective weight to almost nil.

A Tommygun, (or an M3 Grease gun) can be fired balanced on any solid rest, and do NOT climb.

It takes knowing that it is the shooter lifting the gun, and a degree of practice, once you know it, but it is something that can be learned. Regular Military training did not teach this, nor, generally give enough hands on firing for troops to learn it on their own. Many troops went into combat only having fired a few magazines of live ammo.

There is a training film for the M3 greasegun that shows an instructor firing the gun with it balanced on the palm of his hand. It doesn't go anywhere, just sits there and shoots. The M3 is smaller and lighter than the Tompson, firing the same ammo. If it was recoil that makes the Tommygun climb, the grease gun would do it too, and even more so. It does not.
 
I agree with the above, as stated by 44AMP. I've taken many people to shoot my full autos, and every single person, who is shooting a F/A for the first time, uses a stance that is incorrect for shooting a F/A.

The stance is usually a result of bad shooting habits. With a semi auto, the shooter can reset his stance after each shot, so the faulty shooting habit is disguised; whereas with a F/A, the shooter will experience muzzle climb.

The shooter then attributes the muzzle climb as being a trait of the gun, when in reality the muzzle climb is a result of faulty shooting technique, i.e., it's the shooter's fault, not the gun's fault. With proper technique, a shooter can run off an entire belt of 308 without muzzle climb.
 
The 1921 and 1928 Thompson SMGs have the cool factor down. That's for sure. And that's 98% of full auto for most of us not using them for military purposes.
:cool:

They were designed before the best usages were known so the guesses by Thompson et al were all he had to go on. A SMG was a machinegun you can carrry as opposed to a typical MG of the time that was belt fed and tripod mounted. The original SMGs still make a fine conversation piece today.
 
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