You draw a weapon on a man, but he still keeps coming...

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JohnH1963

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You have decided to draw your weapon on a man. The man keeps approaching you at a steady, but slow, pace forward. You retreat somewhat, provide the man with a strong verbal warning that you will fire if he keeps approaching, but he still keeps coming forward.

At what point can you fire? Have there been cases such as this one that we can study?
 
I would try to refrain until the Bg was close but not able to reach me with a lurch and out stretched arm. I will also have given obvious warning so by standers can't say I ambushed the goon. So about 7-9 feet and he is a goner.
Brent
 
Does he have a weapon? Is he advancing in a threatening manner? Do you feel "in fear of your life"?

To "legally" fire, the BG must meet three criteria:
1. He must have ability.
2. He must have opportunity.
3. He must have intent.

You may only fire if "you are in fear of your life or severe bodily injury."

However, our CWP instructor (a 25 year old, retired LEO of a local agency) told us if someone comes at you with his fists, you MUST assume he's going to beat you to a pulp. If he comes at you with a knife, you MUST assume he's going to carve you up. If he comes at you with a gun, you MUST assume he's going to shoot you dead. ACT ACCORDINGLY - the penalty for being wrong is too great.

I would back up AND side step. If he follows your sideways movement, I'd say do what you gotta do.

If you wanna know what I'd do, read my tag line.
 
Lets say you had good reason to draw. He might have been on your property or in the process of harming another individual hand-to-hand. Your intentions are purely for self defense.

However, he does not have anything in his hands.
 
In florida, the presentation of a traditional weapon is not required... Many folks have been killed by either one blow to the head or head injury sustained in the subsequent fall.
Brent
 
To be specific, do you have your weapon drawn at him, or low ready?

What state do you live in?

Are you in your own home? Public?

To you have the room to exit/retreat?

Does the assailant have a weapon? What type? Does he appear to have motive?

Your question is just to general to give a definitive answer. Even then, we could only give you an answer based on observation, not really a clear cut answer.
 
If he appeared to be a threat with intent to do me or mine imminent harm, I'd kill him.

I think a lot has to be said for what the other circumstances are. Were there words exchanged? Was there a precipitating event? Is he armed or potentially armed? Etc. This is an "iffy" thing and no blanket statement would apply to every situation IMO.
 
It goes like this:
Stop! Stop! Stop, pow, pow, pow. If he won't stop for the verbal warning, and won't stop for the drawn 1911, he means business.
 
You draw and present if he has the means, opportunity, and intent. Those things have been met or you have made a mistake. As far as how close, it has been proven over and over that a normal man can cross 21 feet with weapon and deliver a fatal blow in one and a half seconds. How fast can you deliver COM hits under stress to a moving target.
 
At what point can you fire?
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You can fire whenever the law says you can, which differs from state to state and by situation within states. Generally, I'd suggest that if he is just "approaching you at a steady, but slow, pace forward" you will have a difficult time meeting that legal standard lots of places. He has no weapon, he is not making any verbal threats, he isn't trying to catch you, and so on. This is a basic problem with pulling a gun, BTW...what do you do if it doesn't impress the BG?
 
The man keeps approaching you at a steady, but slow, pace forward. You retreat somewhat, provide the man with a strong verbal warning that you will fire if he keeps approaching, but he still keeps coming forward.
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...lurch and out stretched arm.
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Sounds like a zombie to me... ;)

(someone had to say it)

__________________
"They're coming to get you Barbara..." —Johnny
 
Seems to me he is asking for it. Many things to consider on this one, is he obviously armed and such. Seems to me, my gun is out because he is a threat and should be treated accordingly. Assume the worst, hope for the best.
 
In this case, the big word in the deadly force triangle is capability. The VA has already established opportunity and intent; Most of the time, intent is the most complex and subjective point of a deadly force encounter. In this case, there are many variables that come into play. You have to take into account the VCs size, aproximated strength; is the perp armed? What is his demeanor? Do you know the perp and are you aware of his physical capabilities? Basicly, do you stand a reasonable chance in a hand to hand encounter? It reminds me of my one (civilian, off duty) encounter. An unarmed 17 year old attempted to mug me outside a 7-11. I verbaly resisted him, when he bagan to close into my reactionary gap I drew my Springfield. He emidiatly turned and ran. Called to mind, if he had continued to advance(he was at about 9 feet when I drew and backpedled a few steps), I probably would have lowered my weapon and to the ready and went with passive hand to hand(alot of sidestepping, jabs and thrusts to the throat if he had tried to disarm me).

Keep in mind; I am about 6'1", 220lbs, in pretty good shape; the VC was 5'10", 172lbs. I have a good amount of combat training and the size advantage. In my mind, if he had a weapon, he would have made a move for it and I would have acted acordingly. I could have defended myself without use of a weapon in that situation, if I had shot an unarmed 17 year old child, you could imagine that I would be in prision for a long, long time, especially since a good amount of it was caught on survailence tape. Now, If the VC was, say, 6'9" 300lbs, I would have again acted acordingly by double tapping the chest cavity, for which I would have been completely justified.

For the record, after the incident I called 9-11; after my description and the survailance footage, he was arretsted two days later at a near by WaWa gas station.
 
Once you draw on a BG there is a deadly weapon present yours and any advancement of the BG will result in a strugle for your weapon meaning his intent is in fact deadly.
 
You have decided to draw your weapon on a man. The man keeps approaching you at a steady, but slow, pace forward. You retreat somewhat, provide the man with a strong verbal warning that you will fire if he keeps approaching, but he still keeps coming forward.

At what point can you fire? Have there been cases such as this one that we can study?
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I'm assuming that drawing on this male individual is warranted for some reason -- he just beat down a senior citizen to rob them or he just committed some felony, say arson, in my presence.

If his slow, steady pace towards me even as I move laterally and he maintains the gap even if I jog a few feet, then he gets a final Stop! Stay Away! command. Failing to heed that last warning he gets to test the penetration of two rounds of my JHP ammo. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

My rathionale is that he sees the gun and continues coming. He is not afraid of the gun. He tracks on my movements, turning or increasing speed when I do. Thus, he's not afraid of my gun AND he's tracking on me. He is issued a final warning with the gun in the ready-to-fire stage. So he's ignored the presence of my guns and/or is not afraid of it. He is tracking on me specifically, ignoring verbal warnings, not afraid of a gun... He is either crazy or determined to reach me to commit another act of violence.

(Run away? Really? At my age and with desk jockey spread? And he appears to me to be more able to run than I can. I can neither walk backwards forever nor run whilst looking over my shoulder. Disengagement only works if HE lets me disengage.)
 
I was always taught that one of the basic rules of firearms is Never point a weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy!

So basically, if you draw your weapon on a person but they still keep coming, be prepared to follow the above rule, but keep in mind dead is forever. There are no do-overs. If you are not sure you have the psychological makeup or stomach to kill another human being, you should not be carrying a gun in the first place.

Scott
 
This is the type of situation where carrying a non lethal alternative would probably serve you best. Pepper foam or spray would probably be the best choice. An unarmed man with his face completely covered in Pepper foam is easier to get away from than one who's face is not.

Like David Armstrong says, once you draw a lethal weapon you are pretty much committed to using that weapon if the aggressor does not back down and or flee.

This also sounds like another situation where avoidance may have prevented it. Why is an unarmed man approaching you with a look and/or demeanor that makes you fear great bodily injury or death? If it was out of the blue and you did nothing to provoke it thats one thing. If you started or engaged in an argument with someone who could obviously beat you in a fist fight, because of Road rage, etc, then I would say you are not practicing the first rule of all credible self defense systems; Avoidance.
 
Lets see....I draw my weapon on a man, but he still keeps coming at a steady, slow pace forward. I retreat at the same time giving strong verbal warnings that I will fire if he continues to approach me. At what point can I fire? Based solely on the scenario that you presented, no what ifs, at this point he hasn't given me justification to shoot him. I think some of you would be going to jail for a while.

______________________

"Im not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."
 
let's back up.... why did you draw in the first place? You can't draw on an unarmed person who's just walking down the street. For you to draw in the first place, he's already got to have means, intent, and opportunity to injure or kill.

As a civilian defending yourself, you'd have a hard time defending drawing a gun to threaten someone with. If he's not already intent on serious harm, you shouldn't be drawings.

Personally, if I'm on the street (not in my house) and draw in a situation, I'm looking to present to a target, offer a verbal warning, and shoot. The verbal warning is looking for the BG to immediately withdraw. If I've got a little distance between us, I'd consider a slow retreat myself, but I don't know how long I want to be walking backwards with a gun on someone. If the person keeps coming forward into a gun, I'd fire.
 
Frankly, from the information you give in your original post, it sounds like the guy is simply drunk. He might not even be aware of your presence. He's presented no weapon, and a "steady, slow pace" isn't very threatening.

Tuttle8 is right, we need more information.
 
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