You can do what?

R

raktrak

New member
Hey guys I just got back from the Birmingham,Al. gun show where a guy told me he built a benchrest rifle in 243 or 6mm on a 223 case called a 240ttc or something like that and it gets .250 to .350 inch groups at 300 yards. Do y'all know anybody that can do that on a regular basis? That seems extreme to me. They are gonna shoot it in 1000 yard competition.I would give away GOLD nuggets if one of my rifles would do that. Is that possible on a regular basis?:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Well, it can be done.
The records at
http://www.benchrest.com/records.htm
are
5 @ 300 in .115"
10 @ 300 in .1283"
and an aggregate of
5 targets of 10 @ 300 in .1496" average.

I don't think a 6mm on .223 brass would be a contender at 1000, though.
The usual light 1000 yard caliber is a 6mm BR which is not a huge case but is larger than .223.

But I am not a benchrest shooter.

Gold nuggets is about what it would take. An article on
http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html
says a competitive benchrest rifle will cost $2500-$3000.
And you will likely wear out a barrel or two learning to shoot it.
 
I don't think the 223Rem case have enough to shove a 6mm bullet and reach 1000 and still be supersonic. If it did all this SPC, Grendell and SSK cases to fit the AR platform will not be thought of.
 
Saw a recent 1000 yard 5-shot group of 1.6" or thereabouts reported. The records are usually 10 shot groups, but that was pretty impressive. Probably smaller than the resolution of most sighting systems, so a large element of luck was also involved IMHO.

There were some experiments with .223 in Precision Shooting recently. They compared match bullets and concluded that 90 grain bullets, despite lower BC, were not up to 80 grainers because you can't get enough powder behind them to make up the velocity difference at distance. For long range, they indicated the 80 grain bullet was the optimal one in .223. If you popped in a 6mm bullet of the same weight, being shorter, it would leave you a little more powder room, but would have lower sectional density and BC. In any event, you are in the margins here.

The Marine Corp shooting team members used 80 grains at 1000 yards from M16's at the Long Range Firing School I attended at Camp Perry a few years back. They couldn't tell the rest of us what the load was? Something secret their armorers had cooked up. They had no problem staying on paper, but their was enough wind that the .300 mags and 6.5-284's were doing significantly better than either .223's or .308's.

Nick
 
The smallest single group ever shot in competition at 300 yards was a .149" shot by Gary O'Cock. The smallest 5-group AGGREGATE shot at 300 yards is .1518" shot by Bart Sauter who is the maker of Bart's bullets. This .1518" aggregate is NOT actual group size! Bart's average group size at 300 yards was .455". An AGGREGATE is the average group size of five-5 shot groups, and is in MOA. So for example during an aggregate at a match you have 5 groups (5 shots in each group) of .650", .725", .500", .820", and .740" measured using a 6" Caliper at 300 yards. The target scorer will add these measurements to get 3.435". Then divide 3.435" by 5 to get the average group measurement which is .687". Then divide by 3 (because this is 300 yards) to get your aggregate which is .2290" MOA. Groups measured in BR competion are all measured to the thousandth (.001") whereas aggregates are always recorded to the ten-thousandth (.0001"). The best Benchrest shooters in the world using a modern top-of-the-line BR rifle chambered in 6PPC are usually able to shoot aggregates of around .2500" at 300 yards on a regular basis. That is 1/4 MOA. World Record aggregates at 300 yards such as Bart Sauter's .1518" are incredible but are extremely rare. And world record GROUPS such as Gary O'Cock's .149" at 300 yards are even more rare and involve a lot of luck. To shoot aggregates and groups this small a shooter has to have a GREAT rifle that is in tune and has to be on top of his game. With my top-of-the-line BR rifle using windflags, handmade bullets by Bart Sauter, a 36X scope, solid sandbag rests, Lapua brass, I am occasionally able to shoot a single group under .100" at 100 yards. My smallest 200 yard group is .240". But my 100 yard aggregates are usually around .2500" if the rifle is shooting well. The true test of a rifle's accuracy is NOT the smallest single group a rifle has shot, but the average or aggregate of 5-five shot groups.

The guy you talked to at that gun show is full of ****. If he was able to shoot groups like he told you at 300 yards, his aggregate would be between .0833" and .1166"! The existing WORLD RECORD is .1518" shot by one of the best shooters in the world using a 10.5 lb. Benchrest rifle using the finest custom actions and barrels available, chambered in the most accurate caliber in the world the 6PPC. There is NO way in HELL he could shoot those kind of groups outdoors using a .243 Winchester case necked down to .223 and I would bet he NEVER uses windflags. Even a rail-gun would not be able to shoot those groups consistently in an underground tunnel unless it was exceptional and was in perfect tune!

If you talk to that guy again tell him to show up at the NBRSA Long Range nationals next year (200 and 300 yards) and completely KILL the best BR shooters in the world with his .250" and .350" groups at 300 yards.

Jake Hayes
 
Jim,

You must have been reading the records wrong. The group records are actual measurements and are recorded to the .001". The aggregates are MOA (minute-of-angle) and are recorded to the .0001". The smallest 5 shot group at 300 yards was a .149" shot by Gary Ocock. It is the equivalent of a .049" group at 100 yards. That is truly one of the most amazing groups ever shot. The smallest 10 shot group fired at 300 yards is a .536" shot by James Coffey. He was most likely using a Rail-Gun because 10 shot groups are only fired in the Unlimited class. Rail Guns are basically shooting machines that after a shot is fired the top piece rides a set of rails during recoil, and when the top is moved back into place for the next shot, the crosshairs will be in the exact same spot. They usually weight about 35-60 pounds and do not need to be re-aimed after they are fired. The best rail-gun shooters in the world using custom actions that have ejectors are usually able to fire 10 shots in about 15 seconds. These rail-guns if fired in an underground tunnel are usually capable of shooting aggregates of around .1100" at 100 yards if they have a good barrel and good rail gun. All groups are measured from center to center of the two most far apart shots.

Jake Hayes
 
Slight correction

The best Benchrest shooters in the world using a modern top-of-the-line BR rifle chambered in 6PPC are usually able to shoot aggregates of around .2500" at 300 yards on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

What you mean to say is ".2500 MOA", not ".2500" ". (right?) " " " ==> inches.
 
FirstFreedom,

Yes, .2500" MOA. This would equate to .750" groups. This is 5-five shot groups and you have 7 minutes to shoot each group.

Regards,
Jake Hayes
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top