Yet another anti encounter (rant)

C

CindyH

New member
[rant]
So, I'm having lunch with my friends today and I make one "Gun Comment." One of my friends, who says she's not an anti looks at the other girl, and says, "OK, so what do you think about guns? Maybe they can talk about guns and we can just bring up our own subject and start a serparate conversation." This is the same person who thinks it's "So Cool!" that her five-year old nephew, who goes to private school and doesn't have a TV, doesn't even know what a gun is (honest)!!!!! :mad:

See, her ex-husband was crazy and pointed a loaded gun at her, so she has a "thing" about guns. Of course, he also threw a 20' TV at her and DIDN'T miss! No TV-ophobia, though. :confused:
I just don't get it. She's far more academic and articulate than I am, yet she refuses to let go of this idea that Guns Are Bad Because My Bad Ex Husband Pointed One At Me.
*heavy sigh*
We won't even talk about when my mom found out that I drove all the way to PRK with a loaded gun.
*double sigh*
And I used to wonder why 85% of my friends were guys (no offense to present female company :))
[/rant] (for now, anyway :) )
 
Cindy,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She's far more academic and articulate than I am, yet she refuses to let go of this idea that Guns Are Bad Because ...[/quote]

It sounds like your friend is probably educated beyond her intelligence and driven by some strong emotion, with some cause. Frustrating, I know. My wife went off on a small tirade today about not wanting anything to do with fishing and shooting when some friends invited us to their lakeside cabin for some nighttime catfishing and a barbecue. I can't figure out what prompted it, since I know she loves to fish. :confused: 'Got to let it rest for a few days.
 
Cindy, if she's so obviously scared of guns, then I recommend an easy step by step approach. I have a lady at work who is also afraid of them, and she knows nothing about them except they go BANG. She was under the impression that people just throw open the door and start pulling triggers. Nice lady, but completely irrational.

As for the TV thing, I sometimes threaten to throw mine off the 3rd floor balcony, along with my computer! But I'd be very sure to wear eye and ear protection and know what was behind my target. ;)

Good luck with your anti!
 
Of course she has no TV-phobia. With no TV, where would your average drone recieve instructions on what opinions to hold, what to buy, or what to think.

Not dumping on your coworker in particular, just the 95% of the human race that is content to be led through life by the nose, barely cognizant of anything that is beyond their arm's reach, ignorant about anything that happened before they were born or occured outside their home state, and contemptuous of those who waste their time talking about 'unimportant' stuff like philosophy, religion, art, and history, instead of what really matters like last night's episode of 'Ally McBeal' or what the Lottery is up to now...

I think racists are funny; why narrow your contempt for the human race to just one segment?

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Cindy,
I may be way off base about this, but it's in my graduate area(psychology) so here goes. An intelligent person will, sometimes, not be willing to admit to having made a bad choice. If she doesn't want to admit that her ex was a creep (and she made a bad choice marrying him) then she needs to blame something else. Hence, the gun. Like all of us, she has been bombarded with the politically correct notion that guns are bad. We know better. But she can choose to blame the gun and, at the same time, absolve herself. So, the gun being responsible becomes an idee fixe because she believes the notion that guns are bad is an idee recue.
My humble opinion, from insufficient data.

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When they try to take away my 2nd Amendment rights, tell them Hell's comin' and I'm comin' with it! Armed and Dangerous
 
Since we are talking psych here, you guys are going all over the map. It is a simple Pavlovian conditioned response that is showing generalization.

The TV didn't generate such a response because it has a very high positive associative strength as physically harmless.

The firearm probably doesn't have that so it became strongly aversive.

Easy fear to get rid of - if she is interested in doing so.

RKBA speeches and overanalysis aren't the way to go. They will probably generate more resistance.

Just forget it.
 
I feel your pain Cindy! It's sooooooo annoying and they NEVER give up do they? Just try and let it go in one ear and out the other. When one of them are victims then talk to them, bet you will see a completely new view on things.
 
Cindy, your story and the stories of others have shown that there is a total ignorance about guns out there that we have to address.

I have a sales rep who's anti, although I'm slowly bringing her along. We were having a discussion about the safety of guns, and I pulled out the owners manual for a pistol I'd just purchased: 35 pages of red bold type safety warnings. Then I pulled a bottle of poisonous household cleaner from the cupboard and showed her the warning which said "it is illegal to use this product except in the manner for which it is designed." Her response was, "But, Dick, it's a _GUN_!" Obviously, to her, a gun is more dangerous than poison, because she doesn't know anything about guns but does clean her house.

I'm bringing her along, albeit slowly, toward the realization that a gun is an object. My next _big_ step is to get her to shoot one.

Education is the key for us, if we can get someone to at least listen.

Dick
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CindyH:
[rant]
So, I'm having lunch with my friends today and I make one "Gun Comment." One of my friends, who says she's not an anti looks at the other girl, and says, "OK, so what do you think about guns? Maybe they can talk about guns and we can just bring up our own subject and start a serparate conversation." This is the same person who thinks it's "So Cool!" that her five-year old nephew, who goes to private school and doesn't have a TV, doesn't even know what a gun is (honest)!!!!! :mad:

See, her ex-husband was crazy and pointed a loaded gun at her, so she has a "thing" about guns. Of course, he also threw a 20' TV at her and DIDN'T miss! No TV-ophobia, though. :confused:
I just don't get it. She's far more academic and articulate than I am, yet she refuses to let go of this idea that Guns Are Bad Because My Bad Ex Husband Pointed One At Me.
*heavy sigh*
We won't even talk about when my mom found out that I drove all the way to PRK with a loaded gun.
*double sigh*
And I used to wonder why 85% of my friends were guys (no offense to present female company :))
[/rant] (for now, anyway :) )[/quote]

Just my $.02.

First I wish I could find more women like the ones here on TFL :D

It sounds like your friend is still dealing with a LOT of fear. And also with anger. One problem I have had in trying to teach effective Self defense to women is that they have been trained from birth "to be nice". And that they are not supposed to be angry. Though of course they do become angry which because of their cultural indoctination they feel is wrong and so they feel guilty.

You might try talking to her more about her fears and what type of things (that she is comfortable with) can be done to reduce them.
Also fear & anger cause stress. Stress makes it very difficult to think clearly.

I would expect it to take years after such an incident for her to get back to close to normal. Divorce is very stressfull all by itself. Adding doemstic abuse makes it worse. I've been there.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>posted by glamdring:
One problem I have had in trying to teach effective Self defense to women is that they have been trained from birth "to be nice". [/quote]

Yeah, they tried to teach me that, too, but I decided they were wrong! :D

Good observations and advise from all I guess I have to try each idea till something works. However, I can tell when the "I'm looking and smiling at you politely, but my ears/brain are closed" look starts, too. :(

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>sensop:
It sounds like your friend is probably educated beyond her intelligence ...[/quote]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Glenn:
The TV didn't generate such a response because it has a very high positive associative strength as physically harmless.[/quote]

I think both of these are valid causes in a lot of cases. People are bombarded by the negative things that guns are used for so that's all they think of and yes, the TV is perceived as being much more harmless (however false this may be). Funny, since the gun never hurt her but the 20+ inch catapulted TV put a huge bruise all the way up her back! :confused:


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"...you gotta ask yourself one question...do I feel *lucky*?"

[This message has been edited by CindyH (edited May 09, 2000).]
 
posted by glamdring:
One problem I have had in trying to teach effective Self defense to women is that they have been trained from birth "to be nice".
posted by CindyH:
Yeah, they tried to teach me that, too, but I decided they were wrong!

Any suggestions on how to break that conditioning? Without breaking the person?

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There can be only one!
 
Cindy, I find it hard to believe that she is " far more articulate " than You are. Like others on this forum, I constantly wish I could find a woman in my life with the good sense of most if not all of the ones here. crankshaft
 
I found an articulate woman who likes to shoot...had to marry her, had no choice. Just couldn't let her get away.

Our IPSC memberships and CHL's are one-up numbers...

A
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Cindy, I find it hard to believe that she is " far more articulate " than you are...[/quote]
:) all compliments graciously accepted here. ;) (thanks)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Any suggestions on how to break that conditioning? Without breaking the person?[/quote]


hmmm.....that's a tough one. That's sort of a "conditioning" that starts from the "little girl" stage. Personally, I credit my dad with never telling me I couldn't do something because I was a girl.
How to change the attitude of a grown woman? That's tough! I guess, you could try just being staightforward: "Ladies, if someone tries to hurt you, you have the RIGHT to mad!!!" I could be wrong here, and I really don't want to find out first hand, but I think a really "PI$$ED-OFF-beyond-psycho" woman could maybe sort of intimidate an attacker. They're used to fear. That's what they crave. Don't be scared, be MAD!!!!!!! DON"T GIVE HIM WHAT HE WANTS!!!!!! :mad:

This would be a good question to post as a separate thread to all of the women on this board. "What makes you different from other womenand who are not willing to protect themselves?"

Another point, now that I have the attention of a lot of fathers: :)
1)never tell your daughter she can't do something because she's a girl (even if you're sure she can't). I know this sounds obvious, but sometimes it's not.
2)Teach your daughter to stand up for herself, even- no, ESPECIALLY- against bullies and boys. (When my sister was five, she gave our cousin a black eye beacause he wouldn't stop kissing her! Sounds funny, but she said NO! and he kept doing it.
3)Story: When I was eight, my dad took me fishing at the Kern. Just him and me. We slept in our sleeping bags in the back of the truck. Only took a cooler with beer, soda, and a stick of butter (if we didn't catch any fish, we were gonna starve!). We each caught our limit by 11am. The two guys next to us (who had caught one fish each) were in awe! :) :) :)
My dad was so proud!
The point is, make your daughter feel special. Do something with her where it's just you and her (doesn't have to be fishing or anything "masculine," just something you both enjoy).There's nothing more important to a little girl than knowing her Daddy is proud of her for what she can accomplish. :)

(sorry if this is long, but it's a good and important question) :cool:


------------------
"...you gotta ask yourself one question...do I feel *lucky*?"
 
GOOD POSTS ALL!!!!!

To change the conditioning of a person takes time and patience. One step starts a journey as they say. It can't be done over night and it can't be done by force except in extreme cases.

Case in point: My 10 year old son takes Karate from a woman instructor. Now this gal is NOT bothered by weapons of ANY kind including guns. She's a real dynamo. Teaches 17 classes a week, holds Multi-level Black Belts in THREE styles of martial arts and is serious about defense. She's 5'2" and maybe 115 lbs. and I'd sooner try to sandpaper a bobcats butt in a phone booth than take her on and I'm BIG. She specializes in teaching kids. Especially girls. She figures that a teenage girl is a lot better off if she can kick butt. Her mindset would sit well with Jeff Cooper. :)

After the kids have been doing Karate a while, she introduces weapons. Arnise(sp) sticks (about 24" long), the Bo or staff and others as time permits. She was asking me to set up an orientation class for the more advanced students (teenagers) to fimilarize them with firearms. No shooting at first, just show them that the gun isn't going to jump off the table. Her theory is, if we show them that guns are just another tool, they can then make a rational decision about things.

Knowledge negates hystaria.

Rick



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I prefer armed combat to unarmed combat. It's easier on the knuckles.
 
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