Yes, Again!": JHP No good in Snubbies

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Drakejake

New member
Thesis: There is no point to use JHP ammo in 38 special, 38 special Plus P, or 357 mag in a revolver with a two inch barrel because the ammo won't have enough velocity to expand. (I know this point has been raised before.) Discuss.

I followed a suggestion I got and bought some 38 special plus P, but when I looked at thedata on velocities from snubbies, (1) I didn't see much greater velocity than with regular 38, and (2) most of the Plus P still doesn't get supersonic and so isn't likely to expand from a two inch barrel. 357 mag is much hotter than 38 special but from short barrels it also lacks requisite velocity for "reliable" expansion. Ergo, revolvers for concealed carry don't benefit from JHP. Just use the cheaper ball ammo with these handguns.

Drakejake
 
I think most 357 mag from a 2 inch barrell will expand.

38 special from a 2 inch barrel may or may not expand, I agree. Some bullets, such as Federal Nyclad, are designed to expand at relatively low velocities, though.

Why wouldnt you want to carry JHP though, even if the chances are low that they will expand?

I guess if you lived somewhere cold and people were in heavy coats JHPs might not penetrate as well, but for most people, JHP offers a potential advantage and no disadvantage.
 
most of the Plus P still doesn't get supersonic and so isn't likely to expand from a two inch barrel
Click to expand...

I've read the same thing about bullets needing to be supersonic to expand in Chuck Taylors book. I don't know of any relation between "supersonic" speeds and expansion. It's all about how the bullet is constructed and reaching THAT speed. Think of it like this if you made a bullet out of silly putty would it expand at 800 FPS? :) It's all a balancing act between making the bullet hard to achieve sufficiant penetration yet "soft" enough to expand while doing so. As pointed out they do make some loads designed specifically to expand at lower velocities.

Regardless if you get expansion or not, the hollowpoint still has a substantially better shape to transmit it's energy than round nose bullets. Now if you had suggested a nice sharp shouldered semi-wadcutter as an alternative in snubs....
 
my opinion is

the Federal Nyclad, standard velocity is the best all around for the 2" stubby. Great at night, hardly no muzzle blast to blow your night vision. :D
 
As I understand it, some of the newer JHP edsigns will open at much lower velocity. The folks from Black Hills indicated to me that their 230 gr .45acp load (Gold Dot bullet) would still expand at 650fps, far below SOS. Something worth checking.
 
My 2.25" SP 101 is loaded with Cor Bon 125 grain (.38 spl) +P ammo. I never have given this a thought until now. So, I guess my bullets will not expand since the barrel is only 2.25". Damn, I guess I should have got the .357 magnum 110 grainers and just put up with the heavy recoil. :(
 
Charlie Petty did some good work with .45 JHPs and found that the more recent designs do expand at low velocity. IMHO, the Nyclads and the 158 +P LSWC HPs will expand out of a short barrel.

Giz
 
On the chance that it may expand, will it hurt to load with a good JHP defense ammo? At worst it will penetrate like a FMJ, which you are recommending anyway. :)
 
I like to believe that the quality control is a little better for the defensive ammo that is on the market. May not be true, but I think it is.

I have done enough unscientific and totally irrelevent testing to see that several brands of .38 special hollowpoints expand fully at least 50% of the time when fired from a snubby. If real world results were total expansion 33% and partial expansion 50% of the time that would be justification enough for me to pay the extra cost.

I have never recovered a .357Mag projectile that did not look like a lump of molten lead. It always deforms significantly. Of course, from the ball of flame emanating from the barrel, it's possible the projectile could be melting as it passes the front sight. ;)

The decreased chance of a squib load and the increased chance of any expansion, regardless of how slight the resulting advantage, are worth the added expense.

Just my self deluded opinion. I have to justify the money I spent on cases of hollowpoints somehow.:D
 
2 inch barrel expansion

YES!
In most cases it will not expand at 600 to 800 feet per second. To expand you need a very thin jacket that will allow the round to fragment on impact. The kicker there is that some times winter clothing acts as a bullet proof vest. It just will not go through all those layers of clothes.

QUICK SHOCK and GLASHER [spelling is questionable] are alternatives but, still may not go all the way into the body.
 
I switched to Federal 110 gr. non +P Hydra Shoks.

This was from 158 gr. SWC lead +P the dep`t issued. Is it the best? I sincerely hope I never have to find out! :eek:
 
I find a little dougt in this. The 158gr LSWCHP +p loadings have a good reputation and following. These bullets are made from a "soft" lead and have no jacket to conted with. I've never seen anything that stated these aren't reliable expanders, and they get good penetration to boot.
 
Here's another vote of confidence for the 110 gr.Federal Nyclad. I trust my life to it in a 2" snubby on a daily basis. I can think of no higher praise.:)

kstoneking
 
Over the past few years I have tested various loads using plastic milk jugs filled with water. The guns were a 2 1/8 inch S&W Model 640-1 .357; a 2 inch S&W Model 49 .38; a 2 inch S&W Model 64 .38; and a 4 inch S&W Model 10 .38. MY standard in performance is the 158 gr. +P LSWCHP. If a load penetrates as well in my medium with simmilar expansion, I like it. If it doesn't, I don't depending on how close it comes.

The Winchester version of this load expands beautifully from a 4 inch barrel. From a two inch the best I have ever been able to get was about .40 cal from my Model 49. From the rest of my two inchers it deforms just enough to become a wadcutter with better-than-wadcutter penetration. The CCI version of this load gave me simmilar results with slightly less expansion (none in my snubbies), and slightly more penetration.

The Federal 110 gr. 357 expands VERY well from a 2 1/8 S&W. And, it penetrates as well as any of the .38 +Ps that actually did expand.

Remington 125 gr. JHP +P works VERY well from my snubbies. It expands greater than the LSWCHPs do from a 4 inch and and penetrates as well as the Federal 110 gr. .357. It is also very pleasant to shoot. The key to it's performance I think, is due to the great amount of soft lead sticking out past the jacket and the high 125 gr. +P velocities.

Remington 110 gr. JHP +P does not expand from a 2 inch for me. From a 4 inch it is moderate with penetration simmilar to a +P LSWCHP from a 4 inch. This load has very little lead past the jacket and, in various tests I have seen, its velocity is slightly less than the Remington 125 gr. This bullet would probably work very well at .357 velocities.

Remington Golden Saber 125 gr. +P expands beautifully from a 2 inch and penetrates slightly better than the other 125 gr. bullets that have actually expanded in my tests.

Speer Gold Dot 125 gr. +P expanded well for me from a 2 inch and penetrated about the same as the Remington 125.

Speer 110 gr. JHP HANDLOADED at +P velocities expands okay and tends to shed its jacket. Penetration is simmilar to the 125s.

Federal 125 gr. Nyclad expands nearly as well as the 110 gr. Federal .357. Penetration is mighty shallow though! This bullet has potential though, should it be lengthened to where it weighs about 158 gr. and loaded to +P. The current Nyclad 158 is not the same bullet as the 125. It lacks the deep and wide cavity which is why it doesn't work well from .38 snubbies.

Eldorado Starfire 125 gr. +P expands well for me from a 4 inch and penetrates about as well as the other 125s. From a snubby it becomes a wadcutter.

Corbon 110 +P DOES NOT expand from a 2 or a 4 inch barrel in water. This bullet has absolutely the greatest structural integrity of any JHP I have ever seen. Deformation in water is so miniscule that I have actually reloaded and reshot recovered bullets a second time just to see if they needed just a little more battering to help them open up. They still didn't. In fact, I can't even get them to expand by shooting them from a 4 inch Model 10 into wet river sand!

My load of choice it still the 158 gr. LHP from Winchester. Water is not a human body. There are things in the body that are both harder and softer than water. Skin for instance, is an excellent barrier that provides alot of resistance. All of the recovered 158 gr. LHP bullts I have seen photographs of from actual shootings have expanded better than my water tests. Besides, if you don't have the penetration you need the moment you need it, you have got problems.
 
My SP101 also has the 2 1/4" barrel.When I take it to the range I use full bore 125 grain JHP's. I believe these would expand.
But since it's primary purpose is as a house gun I keep her filled with Glasier Safety Slugs. Velocity and "expansion" becomes a moot point.:D
 
Has anyone tested the Winchester Silvertip, for expansion, in a 2" barrel ? Very soft alloy bullet, with no jacket. I saw test results where they expanded quite well from short barrel .32's.
MR.G
 
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