Seeking antecdotal info or factual sources concerning US M1 .30 Carbine stopping power (or lack thereof) as well as penetration ability against light walls / auto bodies & glass / body armor. Am familiar with the weapon itself (as well as most other military small arms). What I'm really looking for are actual experiences with the round used against the above mentioned targets. Any experiences using other than FMJ? Reliability with Soft Point ammo? Forgetting other calibers or rifles for this thread, is the .30 Carbine effective for home defense or as a "trunk" carbine?
WWII/Korea/Vietnam? .30 Carbine Opinions?
- Thread starter Chindo18Z
- Start date
During the Korean War my issue weapon was a .30 caliber M2 Carbine. I loaded it with FMJ because that was all that was available. Anyone I shot with it rapidly fel down and died. I cannot say if the carbine is an effective one round "stopper." I never shot anyone with one just once.
A piece of history tou may find interesting, during the 1960s the British fought an anti guerila war in Malaya. On the basis of actual combat experience they found that the .30 carbine FMJ round was superior in penetration and stopping power to the 9mm FMJ they were using in their 9mm submachine gus. They replaced their 9mm submachine guns with M2 carbines to the maximum extent possible/
A piece of history tou may find interesting, during the 1960s the British fought an anti guerila war in Malaya. On the basis of actual combat experience they found that the .30 carbine FMJ round was superior in penetration and stopping power to the 9mm FMJ they were using in their 9mm submachine gus. They replaced their 9mm submachine guns with M2 carbines to the maximum extent possible/
No anecdotal evidence here.
The Carbine was developed as a light duty weapon to give rear area troops something better than a .45 vis a vis range and accuracy, and much less heavy and bulky than a Garand.
Since it was small and light and quick to bring into action, it was sometimes favored in jungle situations and other places where these characteristics might carry the day.
If I were carrying a trunk gun, I'd rather have an SKS or a Mini-14/30. Not much bigger, much more powerful.
For home defense, I've got the hankerin' for a G21. The Mini-14 might be a good choice here, too, if you think you need the punch.
If you've already got a Carbine in the weapons locker, it's not a bad choice for either use.
Some energy data points, FWIW:
9mm 115gr 340 fpe
.40 155gr 436
.223 57gr 1283 fpe
.308 168gr 2680 fpe
I expect the .30 is between the .40 and .223, and the 762x39 between the .223 and .308.
[This message has been edited by JimR (edited April 29, 2000).]
The Carbine was developed as a light duty weapon to give rear area troops something better than a .45 vis a vis range and accuracy, and much less heavy and bulky than a Garand.
Since it was small and light and quick to bring into action, it was sometimes favored in jungle situations and other places where these characteristics might carry the day.
If I were carrying a trunk gun, I'd rather have an SKS or a Mini-14/30. Not much bigger, much more powerful.
For home defense, I've got the hankerin' for a G21. The Mini-14 might be a good choice here, too, if you think you need the punch.
If you've already got a Carbine in the weapons locker, it's not a bad choice for either use.
Some energy data points, FWIW:
9mm 115gr 340 fpe
.40 155gr 436
.223 57gr 1283 fpe
.308 168gr 2680 fpe
I expect the .30 is between the .40 and .223, and the 762x39 between the .223 and .308.
[This message has been edited by JimR (edited April 29, 2000).]
A business associate served in the US Army in Italy during WWII. He carried a carbine for awhile. Mentioned that he once shot an SS man, knocking him down. The SS man got up and started running. Aquaintance shot him again, putting him down. SS man got up again, with 2 bullets in him now, and started running. Associate shot him a 3rd time, knocking him down. SS man got up again and disappeared around the corner of a building. Associate smashed his carbine and picked up a Garand.
I have heard of instances where perps absorbed 40+ pistol rounds before being taken out with a longarm- as well as big game that had true high-power rifles emptied into them by experienced hunters. With that in mind, a single incident (as the above) or few encounters really don't mean much, but rather, what happened the majority of the time.
.30 Carbine rounds typically sail out at 1900-2000 fps from the muzzle. Not exactly a powerhouse, but when you consider that the bullet weighs twice what the typical .223 round weighs- while going 2/3 as fast. (For comparison, think of how people view the .45 as a "powerful" round, while 9mm many view as marginal. You have a nearly identical ratio of weight and speed as compared to .30 carbine vs .223.)
I have no anecdotal information, but I hope to do extensive testing with the .30 Carbine on hard targets in the near future.
The .223 is not known as an effective performer because of the power that it generates, but because the bullet construction was such that it tended to deform and/or fragment, and therefore increase the damage done. With expanding ammunition, an M1 Carbine should be an ideal home defense weapon, and in fact, is what Dr. Martin Fackler uses. It is also what is beside my bed.
Incidentally, the 7.62x39mm is marginally more powerful than the 5.56x45/.223.
.30 Carbine rounds typically sail out at 1900-2000 fps from the muzzle. Not exactly a powerhouse, but when you consider that the bullet weighs twice what the typical .223 round weighs- while going 2/3 as fast. (For comparison, think of how people view the .45 as a "powerful" round, while 9mm many view as marginal. You have a nearly identical ratio of weight and speed as compared to .30 carbine vs .223.)
I have no anecdotal information, but I hope to do extensive testing with the .30 Carbine on hard targets in the near future.
The .223 is not known as an effective performer because of the power that it generates, but because the bullet construction was such that it tended to deform and/or fragment, and therefore increase the damage done. With expanding ammunition, an M1 Carbine should be an ideal home defense weapon, and in fact, is what Dr. Martin Fackler uses. It is also what is beside my bed.
Incidentally, the 7.62x39mm is marginally more powerful than the 5.56x45/.223.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LawDog:
I read somewhere that the .30 Carbine round has approximately the same energy as a .38 Special.
LawDog[/quote]
Not even close. The .30 Carbine out of the M1 Carbine has lots more energy than the .38Sp. If we take the typical 110gr loading leaving the barrel at 1900 FPS, it has a ME of 882, considerably more than any .38Sp, which is normally less than 300.
I read somewhere that the .30 Carbine round has approximately the same energy as a .38 Special.
LawDog[/quote]
Not even close. The .30 Carbine out of the M1 Carbine has lots more energy than the .38Sp. If we take the typical 110gr loading leaving the barrel at 1900 FPS, it has a ME of 882, considerably more than any .38Sp, which is normally less than 300.
paratrooper
New member
Just this morning in the barber shop the subject came up . I was talking with a door gunner and a few others about weapons preference incountry . My only contribution was that when given the choice I held up both rounds . The .30 ( 7.62 to the purists ) and the .223 . I chose the big one . IMHO the M-14 ROCKED !!! But then again I jumped out of perfectly good airplanes .
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TOM SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA
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TOM SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA
Oh-sorry, didn't address the reliability issue. I think most of the little rifles have a good reputation for reliability. The IAI (I have one) chambers are fairly tight, which means they are quite accurate, but may not feed all ammo as reliably, if other than standard FMJ config.
My grandfather landed in Normandy with a M1 carbine and once shot a German soldier at close range with it. He said he ran into a house during a fight to seek cover and almost ran right into the arms of a German soldier who fired with a rifle but missed and he return fire with 1 shot and hit him once in the lower chest which put him down immediately (he didn't know if he died because he ran right out of the house). But then the barrel of the carbine was touching the German soldier when he fired so I don't know if this counts. Acording to my grandfather carbine was a decent weapon but not as good as M1 Garand but being only 5'3" and 115 lb he appreciated the light weight (rifle and ammo). Also, when my father was in Vietnam during early 60's he carried a M2 carbine. He loved that rifle and said it *saved* his butt few times. In his opinion M2 carbine was the best rifle for jungle warfare and the natives prefered it over M1 Garand too. He still keeps a carbine as his home defense weapon.
Lawdawg, you might have been thinkin of the .357 magnum bein bout the same as M1 carbine.
.357 mag, 125gr jhp, 1800 ft/sec, 899 ft/lbs.
M1 carb, 110 gr, 1900 ft/sec, 882 ft/lbs.
357 load a handful, carbine load a pussycat; for the shooter.
I used Winchester and Lyman tables for these.
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
.357 mag, 125gr jhp, 1800 ft/sec, 899 ft/lbs.
M1 carb, 110 gr, 1900 ft/sec, 882 ft/lbs.
357 load a handful, carbine load a pussycat; for the shooter.
I used Winchester and Lyman tables for these.
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
Lawdog, I seem to remember reading something like that years ago too, although I couldn't for the life of me tell you where. Maybe it was pure conjecture by some writer needing to fill up a page, or maybe not. I also remember, it may have been the same writer, reading that the .30 Carbine was a poor performer on the battlefield when used against ChiCom soldiers who were dressed in thick winter clothing.
DAL
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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA
[This message has been edited by DAL (edited April 30, 2000).]
DAL
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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA
[This message has been edited by DAL (edited April 30, 2000).]
Chindo 18z
After replying to your post I remebered something which may interest you. Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout squad fame stated that of all weapons used by the stakeout squad in a large number of close range gunights the best weapons thy had from the point of view of stopping power were .30 caliber M1 carbines using handloaded hollow point bullets. They found them to be superior to all other weapons they tried which included 12 gage shotguns using buck shot, .38 Specials using hollow points , and .45 Colt automatics.
Cirrilo says this conclusion was based on the results of over 100 gunfights.
After replying to your post I remebered something which may interest you. Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout squad fame stated that of all weapons used by the stakeout squad in a large number of close range gunights the best weapons thy had from the point of view of stopping power were .30 caliber M1 carbines using handloaded hollow point bullets. They found them to be superior to all other weapons they tried which included 12 gage shotguns using buck shot, .38 Specials using hollow points , and .45 Colt automatics.
Cirrilo says this conclusion was based on the results of over 100 gunfights.
Hard Ball,
Is any of Jim Crillo's work available online? It sounds like it would be very interesting as well as imformative.
Joe
http://second.amendment.homepage.com/
Is any of Jim Crillo's work available online? It sounds like it would be very interesting as well as imformative.
Joe
http://second.amendment.homepage.com/
Cirillo has published a number of magazine articles, published several soft cover books (Paladin press) and appered in several videps. I don't know if any of his works are available on line, If you can find them his works are very interesting. He turns a lot of people off because he is extremely politically incorrect, but he knows a lot about firearms and close quarter combat which he learned the hard way.
My wife's grandfather served in the Pacific in WWII. They liked the M-1 carbine. It was light and fast and they couldn't see 50 yards into the jungle anyway. They thought the Garand was too heavy and long and the extra power didn't do much for them at short range. They really liked the Thompson since every once in a while they'd be charged from short distances by a Banzai-type attack.
Apparently when half a dozen screaming Japanese soldiers come who have zero fear of death come charging out of the jungle at 30 yds, the best solution is big fat bullets travelling at moderate velocity. Go figure.
Apparently when half a dozen screaming Japanese soldiers come who have zero fear of death come charging out of the jungle at 30 yds, the best solution is big fat bullets travelling at moderate velocity. Go figure.