WWII Bring Back Gun From German Officer?

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Prof Young

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The gun in the attached pictures was taken off a German Officer by a friend's Uncle. Whatever you can tell us would be helpful. Most especially what is 7,65 caliber (assuming Kal means caliber.) Pictures below and in the next post.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 

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Second post about German Bring back gun.

Here are the other two pics.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 

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I don't know what the value might be, but you should document the circumstances associated with acquiring the gun.

Unit the Uncle served in, date, where he picked it up and what the circumstances were including all details possible (battle, prisoner, name of office it was taken off of if available)
 
32 cal was popular among officers, for some as a sort of badge of office,
or representation of rank,
for others as a convenient, but effective, hold-out gun. That's a beauty.
Nice find!
 
I have read that most of the 7.65 pistols were police pistols, many seized during the Allied occupation forces after the collapse of the Reich.

I have also heard and read many, many stories of weapons "seized from a German officer", but without supporting evidence (war memorabilia forms from the US Army, for instance), it is just a cool story. FWIW, the war memorabilia form was required to take a pistol acquired during combat, but many were taken anyway and just smuggled back. A lot of them were also liberated by US troops from large piles where they were stored in buildings in the occupied areas. Somewhere during the trip home, the GI would suddenly remember that he acquired the weapon in heavy combat after fighting hand-to-hand against overwhelming odds . . .

Absent official provenance documents, buy the gun and not the story.

My Dad served in the Pacific, so no trophies were seized from German officers. Most were taken directly from Tojo himself after fighting hand-to-hand against overwhelming odds . . .
 
Does your friend have the "bring back" paperwork? That's the only way to get full collectors value. The rest is just stories, collectors don't buy stories, suckers do.
 
During the war the Germans officially made significant use of firearms from the nations that they invaded.

In some cases, if the gun was chambered for a non-standard cartridge, it tended to remain in the nation of origin. Examples of that are the Norwegian 1911 (.45 ACP) and the MAS 35 (.30 Long) in France.

Firearms in "standard" chamberings (although not necessarily military standard) were readily adopted, including those chambered for .25, .32, and .380 ACP.

I don't think it's quite as true that these guns would have gone primarily to officers -- they would have generally had German-made guns by Walther, Sauer, or Mauser.

Primarily these small caliber handguns were brought into service for support service troops -- truck drivers, artillery men, even Luftwaffe aircrew -- so that the Luger and Walther handguns could be diverted to combat units.

That it was taken from an officer may mean that the individual was part of the original invasion of Czechoslovakia.

I don't see any evidence of Waffnapts (markings to designate manufactured by the German state), which means that it was made prior to the German occupation.
 
A touch more info . . .

After showing my buddy the posts and talking more . . . They used to have some paper work, but have lost track of it. The "paper work" may only have been a letter from the Uncle. They still have the leather holster that has the mag pouch on it. He has two magazines as well. Gun was in possession of his oldest son and the paper work may have been lost in the process of a divorce. Rats. Ah well. Still a very cool gun. He has decided to not shoot it, but just keep if for the historical value. Will "look" for paper work.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
It had to have been made under German occupation because the markings are in German, not the original Czech. Actually, the Model [19]27 in 7.65mm was made only for the Germans. The original Czech pistol, the Vzor (Model) 24, was made for the 9mm Short (.380 ACP) but that ammunition was not in the German supply system, so they had the Czechs convert the gun to 7.65mm which not only brought it into conformity with the German ammo supply system but also allowed used of a simpler blowback system rather than the turning barrel locked breech system used for the Vz 24.

Jim
 
I don't believe that that is entirely accurate, Jim.

The CZ 27 was developed and sold commercially starting about 1928. It was adopted by numerous Chech government and police organizations.

After German occupation in March 1939 production of the 27 was continued unabated.

You're correct that this one was produced under German administration because of the markings, but as it doesn't have Waffnamps it was likely made prior to 1940.

The .380 may not have been an "official" military cartridge (in fact, neither was the .32 ACP until the war began), but the rounds were certainly manufactured by German companies, and .380 handguns such as the VZ 24, the Walther PP/PPK, and Mauser HsC were taken into German service and issued during the war.
 
I inherited a pre-war Walther PPK 7.65mm from my father-in-law some 30 years ago. It came with the papers, so it's legal, and a military holster with a soldier's serial # inside. It's a civilian model as there are no military markings anywhere on it. It has two magazines and is quite accurate. It's on the bottom with two PPK/S above it.

 
He has two magazines as well.
Click to expand...
Two magazines almost always indicates a surrendered pistol. In the field, a GI capturing an enemy soldier carrying a pistol would dump the magazine on the ground and clear the weapon, leaving the extra magazine in the holster carry pouch (US 1911 pistols used generic magazines, supplied in bandoleers by supply. German pistols' magazines were numbered to the gun). When the enemy soldier was turned over to military intelligence staff, the firearm might be taken as a memento or kept by interrogators, but it would only have 1 matching number magazine because the other one was dumped during the capture. Sure, aftermarket magazines were available, but not numbered to the gun.

On the other hand, a surrendered pistol would be brought to a designated location and turned over unloaded, so it would retain 2 matching number magazines.

Without period documentation, it is impossible to say what happened at this point.
 
The gun in the attached pictures was taken off a German Officer by a friend's Uncle. Whatever you can tell us would be helpful. Most especially what is 7,65 caliber (assuming Kal means caliber.) Pictures below and in the next post.
Click to expand...

I have a CZ-27 Nazi proofed. It was a Luftwaffe issue weapon during the war.
 
Mike, the WAA stamp is the German army acceptance mark, if it was sold as privately owned officer pistol (or for that matter any number of other organizations) it wouldn't have that acceptance mark even if made during war production.
 
Maps,

After the German military brought the 27 into service I sincerely doubt if any were manufactured and sold separately to officers. At that point the German military was sucking up all of the firearms it could to arm new units, and firearms were issued to officers because virtually all production - domestic and in occupied countries - was sucked up by the military.
 
I erred in stating that the CZ 27 was not produced prior to the German occupation, but only about 15,000 were made prior to the takeover. The CZ 24 (Vz 24, in 9mm Short) continued in production through most of that period for the Czech Army and police. In the last year or so, the CZ 38 (the so-called "Czech P-38", also in 9mm Short) was produced for the Czech army, but it was also dropped in favor of the CZ 27 after the German occupation. Both guns were taken over and used by the German police but none were made after the occupation because of the ammunition situation.

Some CZ 27's are seen with both Czech (top of slide) and German (left side) markings. Those may have been in factory stock at the time of the occupation so the original marking was left alone and the new one added.

After the German takeover (which was in two stages) the CZ 24 was dropped entirely and all production concentrated on the CZ 27 or P.27(t) in the German nomenclature. The major reason was that the 9mm Short (.380 ACP) was not in the German military or police supply system, the same reason the Hungarian Model 37 was converted to 7.65 for sale to the Germans.* (Of course a German may have been able to obtain commercial ammunition, but he would have had to buy it, not just go to his supply room.)

In response to another poster, CZ 27's with German markings but without the Waffenamt (Weapons Office) acceptance stamp were for police use.

Jim

*Unlike Belgium, France, Czechoslovakia, etc., Hungary was not an occupied country. It was an ally of Germany almost to the end of the war, and sale of Hungarian arms to Germany was a straight commercial proposition.

JK
 
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