wounding ballistics

J

jb26

New member
I am looking at getting a .22lr pistol (~3-5 inch barrel) for my first gun. Mainly I want it because I can practice a looooot for very cheap. And I want to practice a looooooot. But between the time I get the .22 and the time I move up to a larger 'defensive' caliber,(during the time that I have a .22lr, but before I get something bigger) I would like to know about the wounding ballistics of the .22lr. I have read several places that the .22 will bounce around the inside of a body doing damage (but little stopping power).

What would happen at 5 to 7 yards if the round hits (assuming an HV round at 1280fps and 35-40 grains):
1) sternum

2) skull (not including soft tissue such as eyes)

3) rib

4) If you were defending yourself/your family in your house and all you had was a .22, would you do the standard 2 shots COM, 1 shot head? Other tactics?

Just thinking about it, maybe I would hit the badguy a few times with the .22 and then smack him in the head with my maglite.

Thanks for the opinions/info.

Joe
 
"What would happen at 5 to 7 yards if the round hits (assuming an HV round at 1280fps and 35-40 grains):"

First off a 22 out of a pistol is not going 1280 but rather about 1000 fps with hyper velocity ammo.

1) sternum Bounce off

2) skull (not including soft tissue such as eyes) Might penitrate might not

3) rib bounce off

4) If you were defending yourself/your family in your house and all you had was a .22, would you do the standard 2 shots

I would empty the gun at his face.

I had a suicidal kid shoot himself in the leg with a 22 pistol. The bullet shattered on his femor. He was crying but was largly unhurt. I think the cathider the nurse gave him probably hurt worse.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
Predictable reactions?

1. Falls down dead.
2. Runs away.
3. Continues the attack.

Those reactions regardless of caliber. I'm sure there are many more psychological stops than physiological stops, regardless of caliber. A physiological stop requires the bullet hitting and damaging something in the body vital to function. The heart, for instance. But even with a heart blown apart, a person could still function (and attack) for up to 15 seconds or so.

There are many instances of bullets glancing off the skull; even larger rounds. Of course a lot of that depends on the angle at which the skull is struck. .25 ACPs have probably the greatest reputation for glancing off skulls.

If all I had was a .22 to defend myself, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. It will likely psychologically "stop" the opponent (cause him to cease his attack). It will also possibly just piss the attacker off unless a CNS hit is obtained. Be prepared; it's an unpredictable business!
 
Why don't you get a CZ75B and buy the Kadet .22lr conversion to go with it? total cost would be something like $500 and you get both 22 and 9mm.
 
Richard Davis, founder of Second Chance, could only afford a .22 revolver as a self-defense weapon when he was delivering pizzas. However, he could afford a lot of ammo and practiced like crazy. It saved his life on a couple of occasions.
 
355sifgan, I think you overestimate the sternum. When I was a medical student, I recall doing bone marrow biopsies with a sternal needle. This involved pushing a 1/8 inch or so diameter needle into the marrow space of the sternum with nothing more than a little elbow grease. Also, the 22LR may have more penetrating capacity than you imagine. With a carbine ( ruger 10/22) I was suprised to find that rounds completely penetrated a 4 inch square cedar post. No one would argue for a 22 as a primary defense weapon, but a lot of folks have died from 22 wounds.
 
I agree that the sternum is not the stoutest of bones and .22 lr does have quite a bit of penetrating ability if given a chance. The .22 is often laughed at, but also kills. Most shooting deaths are not due to nervous system shut down, but due to blood loss (bleeding out). A .22 that enters the body cavity may travel quite some distance and bounce around off of various structures, cutting a path as it goes. The shot person may die if they don't get help in a short period of time...because they may slowly bleed to death. That being said, a person shot with a .22 and slowly bleeding to death may still have time to kill you, your family, steal your money, stop by McDonalds for some food, and then drive to the hospital to get patched up.

Check out Ayoob's book "Ayoob Files" and you will read about a lady that managed to shoot her assailent several times and did kill him, but he killed her as well and was on top of her.

The beauty of larger calibers is that they make bigger holes and provide a better canal for blood loss.

Emptying the gun at the head sounds like a good idea and if all you had was a .22, it might be your best hope, but it is a hard target to hit on a moving person and under non-optimal conditions. So, you are likely to miss a lot. Also, what if you ONLY get on shot?

Here is something to keep in mind. My pop who was a cop in Dallas told me several stories of men under his command that got shot with small caliber guns during various events and who did not know that they had been shot! My favorite story occurred one evening after a drug bust. This was in the '70s. A small battle occurred and in the end, the cops won, bad guys busted, etc. We get this call in the middle of the night saying that pop needs to go to the hospital where one of his men was getting patched up for two .22 shots to the legs. Apparently the officer had been hit in the thigh and calf and only discovered the wounds after he went home and was getting undressed.

You just don't hear of people getting shot larger calibers and not noticing it so much. If a bee stings you, it might hurt, might not. If a rattlesnake bites you, then chances are you are going to hurt a lot.

I personally think you would be better suited to invest in some training with a larger caliber gun for defensive purposes. .22s are great fun to shoot, but are only good choices for defense if you don't have any other options and at this point, you have the option to purchase something with a little more punishment for your intended target.
 
Don't let me talk you out of your choice, I'm hardly an expert, but I was just reading this and thinking "Why not a 9mm?".

My first (and currently only) gun is a 9mm. It's not hard to learn, recoil is easy, has serious stopping power, and ammo is also pretty cheap. You might not be able to practice a looooooot but you could still practice a looooot.

Just an idea.

-Shifty
 
Let's face it. There are no guarantees with any particular bullet of any caliber. I've heard a lot of true stories about a .22 LR penetrating the scalp and traveling around the skull only to exit on another side of the head. I've heard the same of a 38 Special and a couple of weeks ago met one fellow who had it happen to him with a 7.62 x 39 mm. Lesson: No bullet of any design, caliber or weight is 100% guaranteed to work.

If a .22 LR is all you can afford for plinking and home defense, go for it. But learn to be good with it such that you can place your bullets. While some may scorn the 22, none will volunteer to be shot with one (unless you're Rich Davis of Second Chance ;) BTW, he's a terrific fellow and a great story teller to boot.).
 
I believe that most .22 LRs will penetrate about 9 inches of ballistic gelatin. This about the same as many of the high tech hollowpoints so popular in larger calibers. If that .22LR will bounce off of a sternum, so will a .38 spl., .44 spl, .45 acp, .45 lc Gold Dot, Hydrashok, Nyclad, or Golden Saber.
 
ellsworthtoohey

The 38.9mm,357,40 and 45 have considerably more energy and momentium with which to break the sternum. A 22 may break the sternum I don't know I am not a medical student. I do know I would not use a 22 for defense it was all I had.
PAT

------------------
I intend to go into harms way.
 
My first recommendation is to choose a revolver chambered for .22 LR and not a semi-auto. Rimfire cartridges experience a higher incidence of misfires than centerfire cartridges. A misfire experienced in a revolver is easily solved by pressing the trigger again.

I'd also use a revolver chambered to load more than 6 rounds.

For personal defense in .22 LR, in the barrel lengths you mention, I suggest Winchester 40gr Super-X Power Point HP.

A .22 LR hollowpoint bullet produces a wound profile similar to a .38 Special JHP albeit on a smaller scale.

The reason lead bullets like the .22 LR "bounce around" inside the body is primarily due to two things: 1) bullet mass and velocity. When the bullet encounters bone after penetrating the body, it's low momentum allows it to be easily deflected. Additionally, lead, being a soft, easily malleable metal, will deform to the contours of the bone structure it hits.

Hits to the thorax and abdomen will be penetrating hits, in most cases. Hits to the skull may be deflected by the angle in which the bullet hits. It all depends on the particular circumstances of the each shot.

------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
 
stanmog-

you just dated yourself ;)

I concur with Shawn. The .22 will cause you some trouble. I had a pt. a few days ago shot at about 50yds with a .22- It penetrated through his side and fractured L5 causing nasty nerve damage. I have had others that are now in the morgue due to .22's.

If it's what you have practice with it and use it. Of course you should move "up" at the earliest convencience.

to answer you questions:

1) unless at a severe angle it will penetrate. This is not that tough of a bone. I have cut through it more than once with only trauma scissors.

2) It should penetrate unless it is at an angle.

3) Will punch through but the small bullet may fragment causing shallow penetration. It will certainly be deflected.

4) Due to the rapidity of fire I might try 4 COM before going to the head.

One thing to consider. When most people see bone it is dead and dried up- therefore very hard and brittle. Living bone is more like the consistency of very hard soap. It is easy to drill through and more pliable than we think. Not that hard to punch holes through as stanmog stated.

regards,

Olazul

[This message has been edited by olazul (edited October 19, 2000).]
 
I agree that the .22 might not be the absolute best at stopping someone. There is only one way to 100% STOP an attacker. That is to cut the spinal cord in half.

That said, the .22 revolver was the preferred choice of the mafia wasn't it?


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"Charlton Heston is my President"

Danny45
NRA, NAHC, Buckmasters
 
I think it was Israeli intelligence that preferred .22 for assasinations. American mafia killers preferred .38/.357s, or silenced .380s, in the stuff that I've read.
 
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