Would this crazy idea work? Sabots for muskets

C

cornered rat

Moderator
Tell me what you think of this technical solution to a hypothetical problem...

Imagine yourself in an early 17c setting. Main arms are light arqubus and heavy, rest-fired musket. You'd like to make the musket more effective by changing the ammunition only. Cost and effort are a secondary concern.

First crazy idea: cast projectiles to look like arrows with fins (three, four?). For a one-inch musket, the "arrow" would be about three inches long, about 1/2" in dimeter. Take a length of bamboo or reeds to a lathe, turn them to fit the bore size. chop them into cylinders long enough to fit the entire length of the projectile, with cut-outs for the fins. Fit the "arrow" up front, pour powder in the scooped-out back of the improvised sabot. Seal the back end with thin cloth. Load normally from the muzzle and fire, hoping that the flashpan charge is enough to burn through the cloth and into the main charge.

Alternative ideas: use moulded clay for sabots. Use shuttle-cock shaped projectile. With sabots, can lathed-turned soapstone be used as a short-range high-velocity projectile? What kind of m.v. can I expect with black powder?

The desired effect would be to speed up operation, improve accuracy an decrease fouling. I am sure my choice of materials would have lots of problems, advice welcome.

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happy Cornered Rat
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Aaahhh....what a great life!



[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited November 27, 1999).]
 
Are you talking about flechettes or something similar?
There are already several different kinds of sabots for frontloaders, for all kinds of bullet/rifle combos.
Most of these leave the barrel at between 1500 and 2000 fps, depending on load and bullet weight.


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Happiness is a tight group!
 
I see what you are driving at. Instead of cloth, seal the powder with nitrated paper (Thin paper soaked in a strong solution of potassium nitrate.) The nitrated paper is also known as "flash paper" and it will convert a black powder loading to a semi-smokeless burn with less fouling.
Taper your chamber area to bind the back end of the projectile. Make the bore loose enough that a ramrod will not be necessary.
So, just drop in a projectile with self-contained powder charge, prime and fire.
 
I wonder how wide-spread paper was in early 17c...but I did say cost is no object. Question remains, fin stabilization or shuttle-cock shape?
 
Aahhh...I think I know what your talkin' about now.
Remember back around '91 or '92 when Steyr was developing a little gun called the ACR?
For some reason or another I don't think it was ever approved though. Anyway, it fired a 5.56x45 mm synthetic-cased flechette cartridge, which was incased in a 4 piece plastic sabot and surrounded by the propellant in a plastic case.
The velocity was something like 4,920 fps at the muzzle, and 3,990 fps at 1000 meters!
The flechettes were nothing more than severely pointed finishing nails with stabilizer fins at the tail.
So to answer your question, yeah, I think they'd be way cool in a frontloader! Although I'm not sure how they'd do on medium to large game, and I'm also not too sure about a "shuttlecock" shaped projectile.

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Happiness is a tight group!
 
Sounds like you're considering a shuttlecock projectile because it would put the weight up front and prevent tumbling, right? In theory it might work, but the drag created by the high velocities would quickly bring the speed way down. So, I don't think a "birdie-bullet" would work. -Kframe
 
I can't see what you would be gaining since the max velocity obtainable with black powder is not effected by bullet weight. It is determined by gas velocity so a sixty grain sabot won't shoot any faster than a 150 gr slug. That is why black powder rifles are limited to approx. 1500 ft per second regardless of caliber
 
That's the idea! An elongated arrow or a "shuttlecock" Brenneke slug would weight more than a plain spherical projectile...more weight to less or the same drag and hopefully some stabilization from fins or weight up-front. What am I missing?

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happy Cornered Rat
http://dd-b.net/RKBA RKBA posters
http://dd-b.net/olegv Portrait, nature photos
Aaahhh....what a great life!
 
Although it wouldn't effect the highest theoretical velocity, a sabot could allow you to fire at the same velocity through a shorter but larger caliber barrel, potentialy anyway. I'm not sure on the particulars, only that you can burn powder either in width or length. I don't know which is more efficient.
 
The Russian 125 mm tank gun is a smoothbore and its shell is stabilized by fins. These fins induce a spin, thereby gyroscopically stabilizing the shell allowing the shell to travel accurately for a distance. The same concept could be applied, but I'm unsure as to the benefit. As Gale said, the maximum (muzzle) velocity you're going to get out of a blackpowder rifle (including a Whitworth or a Volunteer) is about 1500 fps.

Using your saboted fletchette, you may be able to attain greater accuracy and range with a smoothbore. However, fouling remains a problem and it is accumulative. Indeed, when that barrel starts getting fouled, your loading time will be slowed as you attempt to push that sabotted load down the barrel.

The solution in those days was for the soldier to carry a few balls which were progressively smaller in diameter. As the barrel became more fouled, the smaller balls would be used. This was even practiced as late as the 1840s-50s when the King's Royal Rifle Corps (60th) found their Brunswick rifle too fouled and resorted to their pouch with smaller diameter balls.

Better to consider the Ferguson breechloading flintlock. You turned the trigger guard and the breechplug would drop out. Drop the ball in where it comes to a rest against the rifling, pour in the power and crank the trigger guard over. Push the left over powder into the pan and you're primed and ready to go! Self-cleaning in the sense that since the gun is breech loaded, when the oversized ball is driven through the bore, it cleans out all fouling ahead of it. That rifle enjoyed both the accuracy and the speed which you seek. Unquestionably, as a military arm, it was the finest flintlock of its time and was never surpassed. Thankfully, shortsightedness and Ferguson's death kept it from going far.

By the way, Ferguson didn't originate the concept. Frenchman Issac de la Chaumette did in 1704. Ferguson merely improved upon it.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt



[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited December 02, 1999).]
 
Cornered Rat,

Interesting thread and idea. I'd offer one concern: The metallurgy -- and other critical technologies -- potentially available in the Seventeenth Century.

As I'm sure you know, in order for modern sabot rounds to work relatively high pressures must be generated and then contained in the chamber and the barrel. I question if the state-of-the-art in propulsives/explosives, metallurgy, and other germane disciplines was remotely adequate 300 years ago to resolve these key technical issues?
 
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