Would a CCW have made a difference

TheeBadOne

Moderator
Woman run down chasing robber

As her son and others young and old watched in horror, a 62-year-old woman was run down Saturday afternoon at a south Minneapolis gasoline station. Witnesses said Evelyn Geng had chased a robber who had snatched her $50 bill. She then tried to block his escape, only to be hit by a getaway driver.

Police officers rushed to the scene and tried to save Geng, but she was pronounced dead at Hennepin County Medical Center.

Police had made no arrests by Saturday evening, though they had a strong lead and "great evidence," said Lt. Lee Edwards.

Geng, a grandmother of eight and great-grandmother of one, lived only a mile away.

It was the city's 39th homicide this year, and the latest in a string of brazen slayings this week. They include two men shot at a construction office and another man slain in a parking ramp.

Geng's son, Richard Cooper, said his mother had tried to stand up for herself during the incident at the Motomart gas station on Hiawatha Avenue at E. 33rd Street. Cooper said the man snatched her money and a bottle of Pepsi as she stood in line inside the station. Cooper was pumping gasoline into her car as the episode unfolded.

Geng chased the robber to the pumps, yelling at him as he got into a car's back seat. She stood in front of the car, demanding that he return the goods, Cooper said.

When he realized what was happening, Cooper said, he yanked open the suspects' rear passenger door. Inside were four women and the male robber, he said. The suspects' car had backed up nearly to the gas station building. Two women switched positions in the front seat, and the new driver put the car into gear, Cooper said.

"They started going forward, and she was trying to get out of the way, and she went down right under both passenger tires -- the full length of her body, all the way from her leg and up to the side of her face."

The suspects drove off, leaving Geng dying.

"Officer Valerie Goligowski tried valiantly to save the victim's life by performing CPR on her," Edwards said.

Unlike so many crime scenes, when reluctant witnesses disappear, those at this scene quickly came forward to help police.

"They were just as appalled as we were," Edwards said.

Among the witnesses were a boy and girl with their mother and father. They gave statements to investigators. The family appeared stunned and sickened as they stepped around yellow crime-scene tape and got into their car.

"It was a hit-and-run," the mother said, cupping her palm over her mouth and shaking her head.

The homicide unfolded on one of the city's busiest thoroughfares, within view of the Hiawatha light-rail line and thousands of cars crawling by in a construction zone on Hiawatha Avenue.

A shocking crime

Police spokesman Ron Reier said that he often gets calls about killings committed with guns and knives, but that this one made him cry. This was a woman, he said, who was struck down doing what we all do -- simply standing in line to pay for her gasoline.

"Murders are bad," Reier said. "Shootings are bad. But when you go to a gas station on a Saturday afternoon at 20 minutes to 1, number one, you're not expecting to be robbed. And number two, you're not expecting to be murdered. That's beyond the realm of comprehension."

Saturday afternoon, officers collected surveillance camera film and reconstructed the hit-and-run scene, where Geng's white sneakers and purple clothing remained in the parking lot.

The station where she was run down is well-known to police as a frequent site of drive-offs, in which people drive off without paying for their gasoline. Police have said they expect that such conduct will increase as gas prices soar and hit the poorest harder than anyone.

Ron Edwards, a civic leader who serves on the Police Community Relations Council, said the hit-and-run in broad daylight is symptomatic of bigger problems. It's part of a pattern of violence that has been predicted to sweep through the city, and not as much because of gangs and guns but because of economic desperation, he said.

"Whatever it was for, she didn't deserve to die," Ron Edwards said. "It's frightening."

Lt. Lee Edwards of the homicide unit said the death of an innocent woman for the cash in her hand was as tragic a case as he's seen.

"It wasn't enough to lose your life over," he said, then went back to the crime scene.

Saturday night, Geng's granddaughter, Mary Almeida of St. Paul, lit candles, and with other family members prayed for Geng, a lively and loving woman who had a job working with computers.

"She was so young," Almeida said. "I would have always thought that she'd go in her sleep, in her dreams, of natural causes. I would have never thought something like this would happen to her."

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5559107.html
 
I think so. She could have shot the dirtbag in the head through the driver side window instead of jumping in front of the moving car.
 
I applaud the woman for standing up for herself. When I do this my wife goes absolutely thermal. Yelling at me that I am going to get killed someday. But this is exactly why crime is so rampant. People no longer have the tools, and the desire to stand up, and say this is a load of crap, and it stops here! (This is where we thank our government)

With that in mind remember that 4000 lbs. still out weighs 230 grains. Sometimes knee jerk reactions produce these reslults, and it is sad. I hope everyone in the vehicle is caught, and pays the highest available price.
 
Doubtful :( . Even if she got the angle right on the windshield and the round didn't glance off, hitting the driver of a moving vehicle is difficult. Then there's the matter of the vehicle being in motion. It won't stop simply because the driver's dead or wounded. And all this is assuming she saw it coming, and didn't get blindsided.
 
" standing up for yourself " is different from standing in front of a BGs vehicle which is a deadly weapon.Getting a discription and plate number would have been best .If you are carrying a pistol [of decent caliber] you could do something but that would NOT include standing in front of the car !
 
If she had shot the robber she would probably be up for attempted murder. She chased the guy, and that's a no-no.
Me personally I would have given her a medal, but the law isnt like that.
 
It’s a sad story to say the least, but it was over property her life was not in harms way until she got in front of the car. So she never really had a right to shoot or brandish a firearm even if she had one on her. So I don’t see how a CCW could of stopped it. Its just one of those times when staying calm and just getting the tag number and description was about all you could do :mad:
 
It’s a sad story to say the least, but it was over property her life was not in harms way until she got in front of the car. So she never really had a right to shoot or brandish a firearm even if she had one on her.
Re-read the article. The driver of the vehicle was not the guy she was chasing. It appears that they were working together, and the driver ran her down with intent. Given her age, it would be unreasonable to assume that she could physically avoid the car, which leaves deadly force as her only remaining option. Still, as I said earlier, it's doubtful that a gun would have been effective in this case.
 
The driver and the robber were accomplices. He was in the car. She pursued him to the car. I sure wouldnt want to be the DA prosecuting the case, but had she pulled a gun she'd be looking at jail.
 
:( Sad, but it was her time! Yes, I think a pistol in the hand would have helped; but it's, 'Monday morning quarterback' time - now. Maybe the next person will do better for having read this thread. RIP!
 
It’s a sad story to say the least, but it was over property her life was not in harms way until she got in front of the car. So she never really had a right to shoot or brandish a firearm even if she had one on her.

In Texas she could have used a gun to defend property. Not all states have the same laws. Everyone needs to know their own.
 
A CCW would not have helped. First, the dead victim escalated the danger and did not retreat but, gave chase. I can't know what was in her mind, I dare say it was no different than if her own grandchildren had misbehaved, she was going to correct them. Secondly, the son is lucky to not be dead or injured by his actions. Third, it would be imprudent to offer resistance to a vehicle using your body at any time. This time it was fatal. Fourth, the PD came across as apologists to my mind. Fifth, I think that parading a $50.00 bill in some areas is an open invitation for robbery and murder. I hope that when the killers are caught there will be five death sentences.
 
TBO, in this case would a concealed weapon have made a difference? Hard to say one way or another, isn't it?

Now for a personal rant:

First there was this from Dninty9:
It’s a sad story to say the least, but it was over property her life was not in harms way until she got in front of the car.
And then there is this From Sir William:
First, the dead victim escalated the danger and did not retreat but, gave chase.
It is precisely this attitude that enables crooks to steal with impunity. So, we are not allowed to protect what is ours? We have to retreat and not face the crooks?

Look up your own State Constitution. I'll wager that there is a clause somewhere that says you have the right to protect your property. Yet we have, as a nation, accepted the axiom that it's not OK to use force to protect what is ours. Just hand it over, if you please!

[hock-spit]

One would think that the lesson of 9/11 would be at the forefront of all of us.

When we quit this kind of thinking and begin to really protect what is ours; when we tell crooks that they will lose their life if they steal from us, then and only then will they think twice about stealing.

If the wording in your State Constitution is such as I've described, then the heck with what the Courts and the Police say. Get proactive and protect what is yours.

And just so you know, I practice what I preach. As does everyone in my neighborhood. We have yet to be hassled by the police, let alone by the courts. (as detailed in another thread)

I think that parading a $50.00 bill in some areas is an open invitation for robbery and murder.
Yeah, you're right. And if that lady hadn't of dressed that way, she wouldn't have been raped! Some days. some of you guys make me sick.

No wonder we are where we are, hardly anyone will actually walk their talk.
 
I understand. I really detest blaming the victim. In this instance though, there is no way around it. If the dead victim had kept her composure, realized that there was video, realized that her family valued her more than a Pepsi and $50.00, realized that some people are willing to kill for $50.00, realized that she was in imminent danger of great physical harm or death and if she had stayed inside the gas station and called 911, she would be alive. Her impulsive action caused her ultimate death. The fact is, if she had pulled a legally licensed CCW and begun shooting, she would be guilty of a more serious crime than robbery. That is sickening. Her death offends me more so, it didn't need to be. Just do it is only an advertising slogan.
 
I wouldn't shoot anyone over $50, CCW or not. If I was careless enough to present myself as an easy target and the BG had the gonads to take it from me then they get the money and I get a lesson in what NOT to do in the future. I'd have given chase but never gotten in front of the car, in the car, or behind the car. LEOs would need to handle it to the best of their ability from there on out.

I am sorry for her loss of life, but if they'd have grabbed a child (hers were grown) it'd have been worth risking her life for, not for 50 bucks and a coke.

BGs exist. We know this. It's nothing new, and it's no trend that will go away. If everyone had a gun events like this would be few and far between.

Capital punishment, eh, Sir William? For all five?! Your son/daughter/brother/sister/niece/nephew might have been in that car and been unaware what was happening or about to happen. You wanna throw the switch on all five now? I hope you were joking and it went right over my head... (yup, this is going down in your permanent record. Fester grabs pen and writes in ledger: "Never vote Sir William for Supreme Court Magistrate." LOL. [/joke]).
 
Yes. They were all IN the murder weapon. (car) A quick jerk of the steering wheel or application of the brakes might have made a difference. All five are murderers in my definition, active participation not required. I have been in similar circumstances in the past. I stopped a former friend from doing something dumber than shoplifting and stealing gas by a drive-off years ago. I threw his transmission into park and took his keys. I made him go back, apologize and pay for what he tried to take without paying. We don't speak to this day. It had the potential to become worse, I would not allow that. I had responsibility at 15. I think a common denominator in these types of actions is that the youthful (often) offenders know no responsibility. Society must make it clear, if anyone is killed as a result of the deliberate act of only one member of a pack of irresponsible delinquents, drunks, thugs or drugged and confused idiots; all are equally guilty and must ultimately die.
 
CCW? How often does this sort of thing happen in any open carry State? ;)

festergump
I wouldn't shoot anyone over $50
It is not just a matter of shooting someone "over $50". There is no guarantee that the content of your wallet is all you are going to lose.

Anyone who offers force to deprive you of your liberty or property is a potential threat to your life. They might just as easily intend to take your life after your initial cooperation.

You can not read their minds; once you are submissive and at disadvantage your chances of regaining control or the upper hand diminish sharply.
 
Antipitas +1

'I wouldn't shoot anyone over $50'
I would....I'll never give up anything that I have earned to a thief if I have ANY means of resistance!

BTW wife works at a gas station, customers who are known to the owners have ran off with out paying for gas and been caught on camera....police do nothing. When and if they actually catch and convict these scum (and I agree with Sir William...Death for all of 'em) then we can talk about if it even would have been worth the .35$ to call the cops for minor theft had she retreated...

Shawn
 
Look up your own State Constitution. I'll wager that there is a clause somewhere that says you have the right to protect your property. Yet we have, as a nation, accepted the axiom that it's not OK to use force to protect what is ours. Just hand it over, if you please!

To my knowledge only Texas has such a clause. And even then it is circumscribed.

And just so you know, I practice what I preach. As does everyone in my neighborhood. We have yet to be hassled by the police, let alone by the courts
If so you are setting yourself up for a murder charge.

Yes. They were all IN the murder weapon. (car) A quick jerk of the steering wheel or application of the brakes might have made a difference. All five are murderers in my definition, active participation not required

Sir William, not just your definition. I cannot remember the legal term but I believe that everyone in that car became an accomplice to the crime and shares blame equally.
I agree (we all do), it sucks the old lady got it, especially over 50 bucks and a Pepsi. But it is an object lesson in what not to do.
Would I shoot someone over $50? No, but I would shoot someone who was threatening my life, no matter how much money was at stake.
 
I hate this statement:

"the hit-and-run in broad daylight is symptomatic of bigger problems. It's part of a pattern of violence that has been predicted to sweep through the city, and not as much because of gangs and guns but because of economic desperation, he said."

Excuses, excuses. Yes, let's blame "society" for not giving people what they want.
 
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