Won this S&W 1917 revolver at auction day before yesterday.

[Bill Akins]

I just won this S&W model 1917 at an online auction (not Gunbroker) the day before yesterday, for $425.00 (plus 15% auction fee plus shipping). Grips have been replaced by what looks like fake staghorn and lanyard ring is removed. But that's okay, I plan on putting different grips on it anyway and replacing the lanyard ring with a new old stock one I just found. The important thing to me was the condition of the revolver which appears to be really excellent for its age. It's easy enough to change out grips and lanyard rings. If the staghorn grips are real, I'll keep them. But they look like maybe they are plastic fake ones to me.

Also it chambers .45 Colt instead of .45 acp, which is also preferred by me (not sure if it came that way or if someone reamed the steps out of the chambers). Although I like .45 acp in my 1911, In a revolver I prefer the more powerful .45 Colt over .45 acp if given the choice. Can hardly wait til it arrives at my FFL for me to pick up. Been wanting one for awhile, every since I sold my other .45 acp S&W 1917 way back in the '70's (kick myself over selling that one). I think I got a great deal at the above price for the excellent condition it is in. What do you think?

Two pics from the auction I won.

After looking at another S&W model 1917 on Gunbroker, and seeing that it also has a half moon sight that was made more ramp like, (or else being a commercial model perhaps it came from the factory that way) and it also is in .45 Colt instead of .45 acp (I think all U.S. military 1917's were made in .45 acp), I'm starting to think that perhaps mine is a commercial model 1917 instead of one made for the military. See this below link and compare the front sight and .45 Colt caliber of that Gunbroker commercial model 1917 to the one I won.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=279192606

Couple of pics of that Gunbroker commercial model to make it easier for you to compare to mine. Not having received it yet, I don't know if mine has a gold bead on the front sight or not, from the above auction pics it doesn't appear to have one, but except for that, the front sight looks the same as the commercial model on Gunbroker and mine is also in .45 Colt caliber just like that Gunbroker commercial model is.

Also on the left side of the barrel of both mine and the Gunbroker commercial model, it says the exact same thing...."S&W DA 45". For Smith and Wesson double action .45. (Although it doesn't specify .45 acp or .45 Colt on the left side, might be on right side, don't know yet, can't tell from pics).

Two below pics of the Commercial model 1917 on Gunbroker.

I don't think any .45 Colt caliber 1917's were made for the military because they wanted to standardize with the .45 acp used in the 1911 pistol. So unless mine was converted from .45 acp to .45 colt, plus the front sight converted to look like a commercial model more ramp like front sight, then I'm thinking mine might also be a commercial model. Can any of you tell from my above first two pics if I am correct?

Are commercial model S&W 1917's generally more desirable and or valuable than military versions?



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[Mike Irwin]

You'll need to provide the serial number from the bottom of the grip.

That's the surest way to tell whether it might be a commercial model or not.

Also, if it's a commercial model it will NOT have US property stamps on the butt.

If it is a commercial post WW I commercial model, you got an absolute steal.

 

[Bill Akins]

Thanks for that info Mike. The auction text said the serial number is 1934XX
Can you tell from that number if it is a commercial model?






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[Mike Irwin]

I've edited your message to X out the last two digits in your serial number. That's always been considered to be a good precaution when putting the number out for public consumption.

I won't be able to check my books until I get home this evening. I don't know the ranges for the 1917 off the top of my head.

 

[Bill Akins]

Thanks Mike, I'd be real interested in if you find that it is a commercial model.

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[Mike Irwin]

Let's see...

The number is in the correct range for a commercial version, at the high end of the production run, and higher than the Army version, which petered out around 170,000, small logo on the left side of the frame, and, as Supica and Nahaus note, commercial versions are known with the lanyard ring.

There's no apparent indication that it was stamped on the side plate with the Brazilian crest....

Are there any markings on the underside of the barrel?

The only thing that I really don't know about is the front sight. That's throwing me. I've seen front sights like that before, but normally they're on post WW II guns.

The serial number that you note, it doesn't have any letters in front of it, does it?

No matter what this is, you got a smoking good deal on it. Even the Brazilian copies in that condition are going for more than $425 now.

A post WW I commercial gun in that condition would bring close to, if not over, $1000, and a post WW II commercial gun (the serial number isn't right on yours for that, though) would bring upwards $1,700 or more.

 

[Bill Akins]

Thanks very much Mike. It's good to know the serial number is in the correct range for a commercial version. The auction ad specifically said the lanyard ring was removed, so evidently it did have a lanyard ring at one time.

I don't know what markings might be under the barrel because it hasn't arrived at my FFL dealer yet for me to see and inspect it yet.

I don't know anything more about the serial number other than what was posted at the auction site. I gave you exactly what they printed. So evidently there must not be any letters in front of the number. Will know more when the revolver arrives.

But from what you wrote, it kinda sounds like I might have a commercial model after all. As soon as it arrives I'll get back with you with more info once I can see it so we can tell for sure. Thanks for your help Mike and I'll get back with you as soon as it arrives.

In the meantime, while we wait for my 1917 to arrive, I have found a little known auction site where the prices aren't as crazy high as on Gunbroker. I've got several more S&W 1917's that I am watching that are coming up for auction soon at that site.
I've been thinking of bidding on them also and will post some pics of them to see what you think Mike of what their values would be in my next posts in this thread.


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[Buckeye!]

Mine is slightly customized

 

[Bill Akins]

Just "slightly customized"?? I would say so! Lol. Nice one Buckeye.


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[Bill Akins]

Mike here's a few more I am watching at a little known auction site (little known by MOST people anyway). Tell me what you think about these Mike as to what you think their value might be. I have some serial numbers that I X'd out the last two digits of like you showed me. Some I don't have serial numbers on. Showing the actual descriptions quoted from the auction site.

The first one is a kinda rough with rust and pitting. But could be buffed out and refinished. No worries about destroying its collector value doing that, as it is too rough to have collector value. Here's its description and pics on it....

"Lot Description: ser. 55xx, 45 cal., 5 1/2" barrel, rough on finish"
Probably .45 acp. (Edit: This one sold on Wed for $325.00 I passed on it.)

This next one is a .455 caliber Mk11 S&W 1917.

"Smith & Wesson mod. 455 Mark 11 Revolver
Description: 455 cal."

Continued next post due to 6 images per post limit.

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[Bill Akins]

Continued from previous post.

This next S&W model 1917 is one I'm very interested in. I don't think it will go too high because the average person won't know how to fix it. Looks in decent shape except for the barrel that is totally shot out. I know where a replacement brand new old stock barrel is to fix it with. Also needs spring & latch pin on barrel lug. No problem. A new barrel properly headspaced and fix the barrel lug latch and it would be a great shooter. Not crazy about the add on adjustable rear sight but I can live with that for the right price. Also it is in .45 Colt which I prefer over .45 acp in a revolver. (Note barrel being partially unscrewed.) The important thing to me is the condition of the frame and cylinder which appears to be excellent for its age. When I look at a project revolver such as this, I don't just see what it is, I see what it can be when I finish with it. Watching this one very closely and am high bid on it.

"Lot Description:
Large Frame Smith & Wesson Project Revolver, #508xx, .45 Colt cal., 5-1/2'' barrel, blue finish, smooth walnut factory grips. Condition is fair as refinished, needing final fitting to barrel and ejector rod retaining pin. Revolver features later click-adjustment S&W rear sight. Action remains crisp, bore with only the lightest traces of original grooves. A great project gun for the amateur gunsmith. NOT TO BE FIRED IN THIS CONDITION."

Next is an unusual S&W 1917. Not because it is in .455 caliber and has an adjustable rear sight, but because it has the grip modified to be a birds head grip. With its longer barrel and birds head grips, I think it's very cool looking.

"Large Frame Double Action S&W Revolver
Lot Description:
Large Frame Double Action Smith & Wesson Revolver. .455 cal., 6-1/2'' barrel, blue finish, gunsmith modified bird's head grip, with adjustable rear sight and modified hammer spur. Revolver started life as a Model 1917 Military revolver and was thus modified. Condition is fair to good. Frame with general moderate overall pitting; barrel a little more. Action is crisp, bore is bright."

Continued next post due to 6 images per post limit.



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[Bill Akins]

Continued from previous post.

This last one is a rust locked up S&W 1917 with a cut barrel and no front sight. Probably will go cheap because it is totally locked up and cylinder won't open. Would be an excellent source for parts or could have a new barrel installed or keeping existing barrel, could be soaked in parts cleaner, then buffed out and cleaned up and a front sight installed, then refinished for a shorty belly gun. Hard to understand what some long ago Bubba was thinking when he hacksawed off the barrel, not to mention letting the revolver get in this condition.

"Smith & Wesson DA .45 Cal. Revolver U.S. Army Model 1917
Lot Description:
Barrel Has Been Cut Down Synthetic Stag Grip Gun is Locked Up, Can't Loosen Up Cylinder (AS/IS)"

I know without having all the info and serial numbers that it's hard to place a real value on them. But just based on what I've shown, what do you think ball park values of those would be Mike?

Also Mike, I have heard that some .455 1917's cylinders were modified to shoot .45 acp or .45 colt. But isn't the barrel bore of the .455 larger than a .45 acp or .45 colt projectile? So although they might work with the cylinders being retro-fitted from .455 to .45 acp or .45 colt, wouldn't that cause inaccuracy due to the too large barrel bore of the .455 with its barrel lands and grooves not properly engaging the .45 acp and .45 colt projectiles? So unless the barrel was bored out and sleeved to the proper specs for the .45 acp/45 Colt, wouldn't the .455 bore be too large?

Also do you or anyone else know of anyone who rebores/sleeves S&W 1917 barrels?




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[Mike Irwin]

I wouldn't think any of those guns, save possibly the .455 with the nice finish, would be particularly valuable.

The several non functional ones I wouldn't go more than $100 or so on.

The problem with an auction site is that anymore, they rarely indicate the true value of the firearm being sold, either trning into a smoking hot deal as you got, or a boondoggle when a couple of people start dueling over a gun and run the price up way too high.

 

[Bill Akins]

I agree with much of what you're saying Mike, and would also normally agree that the S&W 1917's needing a lot of work, like you said, would not (ordinarily) be worth more than $100.00

But here's the problem. One of them is slightly humorous and is fueled by Hollywood. Every since "Indiana Jones" came out, where he used a S&W 1917, there has been a renewed interest in the S&W 1917 that previously was only there with collectors and shooters. Suddenly EVERYONE wanted one. Kind of like when "Dirty Harry" came out, EVERYONE wanted a S&W model 29. So that's one reason.

Another reason is that the S&W 1917's that I and we bought back in the '70's for $125.00 to $150.00 are now approaching their century mark. They are starting to get rarer and going into the realm of collector pieces somewhat more than just being shooters. That drives the price up as well.

I've seen run of the mill S&W 1917's going on Gunbroker for anywhere from $800.00 to $1100.00

I've spoken with two people about my buying their new (old stock) S&W 1917 barrels (that have never been installed on a revolver) and one of them wants $100.00 and the other wants $90.00 So as you can see even parts are getting expensive for these revolvers.

So even a non functioning S&W 1917 is going to be worth much more than $100.00 just for some of its parts alone. I'd like to get one or two more along with the one I just won at auction before they get totally out of sight price wise. I can fix just about anything, so even one not in operable condition, as long as the frame and cylinder are in decent shape has considerable value to me, say maybe several hundred dollars. Because even though I don't plan to ever sell any S&W 1917 I ever get my hands on ever again, once they were fixed and operable, they would be worth considerably more than what I paid for them when they were either a beater or inoperable for whatever reason.

Should have held onto mine back in the '70's. Still kick myself over letting that one go. At least I got a great deal (I hope, will know more when I actually receive it) on the one I recently won at auction. But since I don't want to spend high dollar on another one, I'm looking at some of them that may need a little work but still have excellent frames and cylinders. That's the most important thing to me, because I can fix a barrel by simply replacing it. Or....I would like to find out who (and for how much), someone might be reboring and sleeving 1917 barrels.



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[Mike Irwin]

Well, as I said, I wouldn't go more than $100 on the non functional ones.

I can't control what someone else is willing to spend on one.

The prices on firearms in general have gone up markedly the past 4 years, not just 1917s.

But, again, that doesn't mean that my tolerance level for what I'll pay for an inoperable gun has gone up.

 

[Bart Noir]

I do wonder about the pictured revolvers that are described here as firing the .45 Colt.

It looks like the large gap from the cylinders to the recoil shields are the same as the .45 ACP version, the real-McCoy Model 1917. I guess the sellers mean that the ACP chambers were reamed a little deeper so that .45 Colt will fit and still correctly headspace on the recoil shield.

If so, then the case head of a .45 Colt round will not be as fully supported as it would in a true .45 Colt cylinder. And I don't like that idea, for safety reasons.

Anybody else think the pictures look like they are of .45 ACP cylinders even for those now considered to shoot .45 Colt?

I mean, I could be wrong. It happened once before. I think. Been so long I may not remember right

Bart Noir

 

[Bill Akins]

It's ironic that you made your post today. Because just this morning I was wanting to confirm that the "project" 1917 shot 45 Colt. So I called the auction site and spoke to a man there who got it and looked at it while we spoke. He confirmed to me that under the barrel it says U.S. property. So that's one indication that at least from the factory it wasn't .45 Colt. Then I asked him if the cylinder's chambers had steps in them or if they were smooth. He said they have steps. So I informed him that their description was wrong and from what he had told me, that one does indeed chamber .45 acp. I saw that after my call they changed the description to .45 ACP. I'm still high bid and still interested in getting it if the price doesn't go too high.


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[James K]

I am getting pretty confused, but AFAIK S&W never made the 1917 in .45 Colt. Converting .455 revolvers to .45 Colt was quite common at one time, but you can't convert the M1917 in .45 ACP to .45 Colt without a new cylinder as the headspace is excessive.

Post #11 shows a revolver with the barrel unscrewed a couple of threads, yet apparently tight against the cylinder. Something wrong there.

The gun with stag grips (328 in the pics) appears to have a normal .45 ACP cylinder with enough headspace for the rim and the moon clip, yet the OP says it is in .45 Colt. I have a rather bad feeling about just about all those guns; it looks like the bubba fairies have been at work.

The sights being cut wrecks the collector value, but may actually make a more practical sight. S&W never made any sight like that in that era.

As to .45 Colt or .45 ACP in a barrel made for .455, no problem. It is possible to get .003" bullet diameter difference among rounds in the same box.

Jim

 

[Bill Akins]

James K wrote:

I am getting pretty confused, but AFAIK S&W never made the 1917 in .45 Colt. Converting .455 revolvers to .45 Colt was quite common at one time, but you can't convert the M1917 in .45 ACP to .45 Colt without a new cylinder as the headspace is excessive.

Post #11 shows a revolver with the barrel unscrewed a couple of threads, yet apparently tight against the cylinder. Something wrong there.

The gun with stag grips (328 in the pics) appears to have a normal .45 ACP cylinder with enough headspace for the rim and the moon clip, yet the OP says it is in .45 Colt. I have a rather bad feeling about just about all those guns; it looks like the bubba fairies have been at work.

The sights being cut wrecks the collector value, but may actually make a more practical sight. S&W never made any sight like that in that era.

As to .45 Colt or .45 ACP in a barrel made for .455, no problem. It is possible to get .003" bullet diameter difference among rounds in the same box.

Jim

I'll try to answer in the same order of points you made James.

"you can't convert the M1917 in .45 ACP to .45 Colt without a new cylinder as the headspace is excessive."

But as you mentioned, you can convert it using a .45 Colt caliber cylinder.

I note what you're saying about post #11. But it could be from the pics that we aren't seeing the barrel to cylinder gap good enough to tell if the cylinder is actually right up against the barrel or not. In my post previous to this one, I told how the auction company had the description wrong in calling that project revolver a .45 Colt and how when I called them we ascertained that it is indeed a .45 acp. At any rate, the description says there is only the barest traces of rifling left in the barrel. So I'd have to replace the barrel anyway and have found a brand new old stock one to do that with.

Lot 328 is the one I won and am still waiting on arriving at my dealer. I note what you say about the headspace. As with the auction company on the project revolver, it may very well be possible that the other auction company also made a mistake and said it was a .45 Colt when it actually from the pics appears to be a .45 acp. Either way, .45 Colt or .45 acp, I'll be happy getting it for the price I did in the condition it's in.

On the project revolver having its frame cut for a later add on rear sight. I'm not wild about that but for the right price I could live with it and just increase the height of the front sight so it won't shoot high. I don't care about the collector value that much because I'd like to get that project 1917 to shoot and would never think of selling it. The fact that it has lessened collector value hopefully will help me to get it cheaper when its day comes at auction.

One thing I have learned about these auction sites is the auction company people writing their descriptions seem to be often making mistakes. On Gunbroker its the seller writing their own descriptions. But on smaller auction sites often they are estate sales where heirs don't know exactly what the guns might be and so they often leave it to the auction house to write the descriptions. The auction house uses whatever info the owners give them but if the owners don't know, then the auction house has to ascertain about the gun based on what they can see and happen to know. Often times mistakes are made in the auction description as we saw happened with the caliber of the project 1917 revolver that was listed as .45 Colt and I working with the guy at the auction house ascertained that it is actually in .45 acp.

I won't know if lot #328 that I won, is in .45 Colt or .45 acp til it arrives. But I also suspect it will be .45 acp based on the headspace and I suspect once again the auction house made a mistake in the description. I would prefer it in .45 Colt, but .45 acp is fine if that's what it turns out to be.



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[Bill Akins]

Well my S&W model 1917 arrived & I picked it up at my dealer's yesterday. Although at some point no doubt it has been refinished, because it doesn't have a scratch in the finish and is absolutely gorgeous. The below pic almost does it justice, but not quite, it's even nicer in person.

No "U.S. property" marks on it anywhere and it IS a commercial model that I was hoping it would be. Cylinder serial number doesn't match the frame serial number though. The staghorn grips although probably fake staghorn, are really nice fake ones (I think they're fake, might not be!) with perfectly fitted and polished inlaid wood all around their sides and underside that you can't see in the pic. Never seen a set like that before. Think I'll keep them. Gives it a nice wider feeling grip that fits my big hands very well. "Staghorn" irregularities keep it securely non-slip in the hand.

Metal on backstrap of grip is nicely checkered. In spite of no doubt being refinished, (unless it sat in a drawer for 80 years) no buffing is evident! All numbers and symbols are sharp and crisp. Believe it or not, even moving it around in the light and trying to see, I can't really see any significant ringing around the cylinder! Just in one spot the very very barest trace of a ring mark and you have to really look hard in perfect light to even see that!

Both single and double action are smooth as silk with just a teeny bit of wobble on hammer back/hammer down, on the cylinder that I have seen the same amount of cylinder wobble on brand new revolvers. Outstanding actually for a revolver that being a commercial model is probably pushing 70 or 80 years old. Looks like I got a good one.

When the auction was live, and before I bid my final bids, I live messaged the auctioneer (before my lot came up) and asked him if it was .45 Colt or .45 ACP and he wrote me back saying it definitely was .45 Colt.

Well.....it isn't. It is .45 ACP like I suspected from the cylinder to recoil shield gap in the auction photos. I'd have preferred .45 Colt but .45 ACP is okay. One would think that auctioneers who are around and sell guns all the time, that they would know that if it has steps in the cylinder's chambers that it is .45 acp and NOT .45 Colt. That's twice now that I've caught two different auction houses saying a S&W 1917 was in .45 Colt when in fact it was chambered for .45 acp. Just when I think nothing will surprise me anymore, I am further surprised by incompetence and ignorance.

But it's a beautiful revolver and in spite of them getting the cartridge wrong, I'm very happy with it.



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