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Wisdom from the past
- Thread starter 455
- Start date
kilotanker22
New member
Makes sense. 100 yrds is enough to prove that the equipment is capable.
Many shooters can't even shoot tight groups at 100 yards. Let alone further out. As you get farther away. Small imperfections in form and technique make more and more of an impact.
So yeah. I would tend to agree with the above statement.
Many shooters can't even shoot tight groups at 100 yards. Let alone further out. As you get farther away. Small imperfections in form and technique make more and more of an impact.
So yeah. I would tend to agree with the above statement.
I thought I would pass along a few words from 40 years ago about BR Shooting
That would be in the late 70s' that would put the time period before reloaders made most of this stuff up. We have a member that insist 'we all' should do it like the bench resters. Those that make it up insist the bench rester full length size their cases and they insist benchresters have been doing it for decades.
F. Guffey
In 1973, the 100 Yard Light Varmint class BR record was .009". Nobody has come close since.
Read this.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2013/05/benchrest-world-record-jim-carmichel#page-4
We owe a lot to the BR guys. Lotta match grade stuff we take for granted now wouldn't exist without 'em.
Read this.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2013/05/benchrest-world-record-jim-carmichel#page-4
We owe a lot to the BR guys. Lotta match grade stuff we take for granted now wouldn't exist without 'em.
kilotanker22
New member
kilotanker22
New member
That record was broken in 2013. See the link above.In 1973, the 100 Yard Light Varmint class BR record was .009". Nobody has come close since.
Read this.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2013/05/benchrest-world-record-jim-carmichel#page-4
We owe a lot to the BR guys. Lotta match grade stuff we take for granted now wouldn't exist without 'em.
I don't think I could ever get interested in short range benchrest, now if we are talking 300, 600 and 1000 yard oh yeah. Even at 100 those guys shot some pretty remarkable groups even at club level. My best 5 shot group ever was with a .204 Ruger and measured in the twos and now I regret not framing that group. It was 99% pure luck and I have never gotten lower than mid threes since and those are rare
One thing I always try and stress is that accuracy is relative, we have a thread active here now where a guys is getting some really nice groups at 200 and 300 from a Thompson rifle with a sporter barrel. Shooting .5's and .4s with a target rifle is common but doing it with a off the shelf sporter impresses me.
One thing I always try and stress is that accuracy is relative, we have a thread active here now where a guys is getting some really nice groups at 200 and 300 from a Thompson rifle with a sporter barrel. Shooting .5's and .4s with a target rifle is common but doing it with a off the shelf sporter impresses me.
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kilotanker22
New member
That Thompson 270 wsm sure is a shooter. I think it could do better. AT 300 yards The crosshair takes up the entire bullseye pretty well. Sometimes its hard to tell if my aim is perfect.I don't think I could ever get interested in short range benchrest, now if we are talking 300, 600 and 1000 yard oh yeah. Even at 100 those guys shot some pretty remarkable groups even at club level. My best 5 shot group ever was with a .204 Ruger and measured in the twos and now I regret not framing that group. It was 99% pure luck and I have never gotten lower than mid threes since and those are rare
One thing I always try and stress is that accuracy is relative, we have a thread active here now where a guys is getting some really nice groups at 200 and 300 from a Thompson rifle with a sporter barrel. Shooting .5's and .4s with a target rifle is common but doing it with a off the shelf sporter impresses me.
And I am only human. Its cold this time of year here. Shooting well is easier in the spring..
But I agree. Shooting at 100 is boring after awhile. I find it much more difficult to keep it together further out.
reynolds357
New member
Sometimes these miraculous groups are luck. An excellent shooter and an excellent gun had a bit of luck. I remember Bart pointing out one time that most records had a card before and a card after that were very average.
Older than you think
I believe the saying is "the bench proves the gun; offhand proves the man", or very close to that. It comes from Schuetzen rifle style competitions that were brought here in the first half of the 19th century by German immigrants. They have both benchrest and offhand matches, the reason being given in that statement, and often participants would shoot both or they would be combined as different phases of the same match. Both were fired at 200 yards then and still are today, AFAIK.
Probably the most famous Schuetzen offhand marksman was American barrel maker Harry M. Pope, who was competing from the 1880s through the first decade of the 20th century, I think. He set a number of offhand records at 200. He liked to say:
“Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man!”
The post isn't about handloading. I'll move it to an appropriate forum.
I believe the saying is "the bench proves the gun; offhand proves the man", or very close to that. It comes from Schuetzen rifle style competitions that were brought here in the first half of the 19th century by German immigrants. They have both benchrest and offhand matches, the reason being given in that statement, and often participants would shoot both or they would be combined as different phases of the same match. Both were fired at 200 yards then and still are today, AFAIK.
Probably the most famous Schuetzen offhand marksman was American barrel maker Harry M. Pope, who was competing from the 1880s through the first decade of the 20th century, I think. He set a number of offhand records at 200. He liked to say:
“Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man!”
The post isn't about handloading. I'll move it to an appropriate forum.
I believe the saying is "the bench proves the gun; offhand proves the man"
Three years shooting competitive sporter rifle (.22's under 7.5 pounds, 50', unsupported offhand) did wonders for every style of shooting I have done since. I actually shoot better standing at 200 yards than I do sitting and kneeling on the USMC qual.
I have never gotten the hang of shooting from a kneeling or sitting position myself. My favorite is prone with a bipod or sling and standing is a close second. I try to only use a bench when I want to isolate the gun and ammo from my technique. My load development sessions are shot from a bench with a bipod or rest as appropriate, but my fun and competition is prone
bamaranger
New member
shooting
I can't prove this, but I suspect that the quality of the typical U.S. shooter, and by that I mean the guy that owns a few guns, small game and deer hunts a bit, may be has a CC permit, has declined over the years. And before I am accused of too much ego for myself, I will state right now that I am not the shot I was 10 yrs ago, and certainly not 20 years ago.
With that out of the way......I am amazed at the deer missed or hit and lost that I hear about. Just this evening, guy said to me he'd hit and lost a deer (doe) on such and such a field from the shooting house. My first thought (unspoken) was "how in the heck did he do that?" I know the place, only 75 yds in either direction that one can see or shoot, and, there's a railing/ledge to rest the rifle on.......stuff happens I suppose, but , makes me wonder. Another guy I keep up with took a pal to another spot I am familiar with, both of them had tripods or shooting sticks and were seated on folding stools. BOTH of them hit deer that trip, 100-150 yds and did not recover them. I could go on and on......
I've got a cowbell .22 target (get one, their a hoot) about 100 yds from the house. We routinely shoot .22's. at it, I keep a scoped .22 and an old .44 US Mossberg w/ factory peep zeroed "on" at 100 just for that purpose. I miss it far more often than I used to shooting unsupported.. I can still ding it fairly regularly shooting supported from sticks or propped against the big whiteoak that stands where we shoot from. Of course, if friends are over that shoot, everybody wants to give it a try. Results are not encouraging. Over at my shooting club, and especially at the public range nearby, shooting seems to some more about rate of fire and noise making. Spent 9mm and .223 brass abounds. Berm blasting seems the rage. I once went to the opening of a LE training center, and they had a range with moving targets, and FREE ammo to anybody that wanted to try it. Must have been 30-40 officers there, myself and two or three other guys gave it a whirl. Nobody else present seemed to have enough confidence in their shooting to shoot in front of the group. It was pitiful.
When I was a kid, their were .22 leagues, sponsored by the Legion or VFW and local sportsman clubs. All those places had ranges, one of the vets ranges was even indoors. Heck, I even took a .22 target pistol class in college (bet they dropped that course!). It was a badge of honor among your peers and to some extent the community, to be known as a good shot.
In all the years I hunted with him , I can remember my uncle missing one deer, and misses by the group of fellas we hunted with, almost all WWII or Korea vets, were seldom (well, at least they'd admit to). My Dad, bless his soul, cross dominant and largely untrained, was an admittedly poor shot, but he sure encouraged me and provided opportunity to both hunt and shoot.
I've tried hard to to the same w/ bamaboy, now a grown young man. But I wonder if the decline of opportunities, the rise of technology, (everybody shoots well in a video game!) the increasing urban and suburban landscape, and the lack of elders for instruction, have poisoned our collective marksmanship?
I can't prove this, but I suspect that the quality of the typical U.S. shooter, and by that I mean the guy that owns a few guns, small game and deer hunts a bit, may be has a CC permit, has declined over the years. And before I am accused of too much ego for myself, I will state right now that I am not the shot I was 10 yrs ago, and certainly not 20 years ago.
With that out of the way......I am amazed at the deer missed or hit and lost that I hear about. Just this evening, guy said to me he'd hit and lost a deer (doe) on such and such a field from the shooting house. My first thought (unspoken) was "how in the heck did he do that?" I know the place, only 75 yds in either direction that one can see or shoot, and, there's a railing/ledge to rest the rifle on.......stuff happens I suppose, but , makes me wonder. Another guy I keep up with took a pal to another spot I am familiar with, both of them had tripods or shooting sticks and were seated on folding stools. BOTH of them hit deer that trip, 100-150 yds and did not recover them. I could go on and on......
I've got a cowbell .22 target (get one, their a hoot) about 100 yds from the house. We routinely shoot .22's. at it, I keep a scoped .22 and an old .44 US Mossberg w/ factory peep zeroed "on" at 100 just for that purpose. I miss it far more often than I used to shooting unsupported.. I can still ding it fairly regularly shooting supported from sticks or propped against the big whiteoak that stands where we shoot from. Of course, if friends are over that shoot, everybody wants to give it a try. Results are not encouraging. Over at my shooting club, and especially at the public range nearby, shooting seems to some more about rate of fire and noise making. Spent 9mm and .223 brass abounds. Berm blasting seems the rage. I once went to the opening of a LE training center, and they had a range with moving targets, and FREE ammo to anybody that wanted to try it. Must have been 30-40 officers there, myself and two or three other guys gave it a whirl. Nobody else present seemed to have enough confidence in their shooting to shoot in front of the group. It was pitiful.
When I was a kid, their were .22 leagues, sponsored by the Legion or VFW and local sportsman clubs. All those places had ranges, one of the vets ranges was even indoors. Heck, I even took a .22 target pistol class in college (bet they dropped that course!). It was a badge of honor among your peers and to some extent the community, to be known as a good shot.
In all the years I hunted with him , I can remember my uncle missing one deer, and misses by the group of fellas we hunted with, almost all WWII or Korea vets, were seldom (well, at least they'd admit to). My Dad, bless his soul, cross dominant and largely untrained, was an admittedly poor shot, but he sure encouraged me and provided opportunity to both hunt and shoot.
I've tried hard to to the same w/ bamaboy, now a grown young man. But I wonder if the decline of opportunities, the rise of technology, (everybody shoots well in a video game!) the increasing urban and suburban landscape, and the lack of elders for instruction, have poisoned our collective marksmanship?
This is what 100yfs BR target looks like
https://chltargets.com/ibs-100-yd-br-paper-target-official-ibs-target/
The top target is record target and bottom is for sighters, so you get practice during match.
https://chltargets.com/ibs-100-yd-br-paper-target-official-ibs-target/
The top target is record target and bottom is for sighters, so you get practice during match.
I'm not sure that 100 yards "proves the equipment". Many factors begin to make themselves known at longer ranges: slight inconsistencies in velocity, clarity of optic, and external influences can turn a 1 MOA 100 yard performance into a 3-4 MOA @ 200. Unless the shooting is done in total wind free conditions, that becomes the primary factor.
Having been stuck with a 100 yard range for a few years, I recently joined a range 2 hours away that goes out to 1000 yards. I had shot groups as low as .2" at 100 yards. When I moved to the new range The problem with the new range is it is steel only on all the ranges except the 100 yard range. The longer ranges are hot all the time. All this is to preface my group I feel is the best. I was on the 500 yard range with my RRA LAR15 with 24" bull barrel. I had walked out to the 500 yards and was thinking the torso to easy and noticed the shots were grouping well. I was also lucky the target had been painted and very few marks were on the body. No marks on the head portion. I decided to try a series of head shots. My elevation was spot on, but I used a hold off for wind. I actually was holding 2-3" off the left of the head. I placed the next 10 shots in a string on the head. The group looked to be about have 1" to 1.5" vertical dispersion. It also was contained very easily within the head with a good space on either side of the group. I estimated the group to be 4". I love proving my work at 100 yards was worthwhile and I love shooting at the longer range. I wish I could shoot paper at longer ranges.
Having said that at my old range I was constantly amazed at the groups people called groups. They were constantly amazed at my small groups.
Having said that at my old range I was constantly amazed at the groups people called groups. They were constantly amazed at my small groups.
I have no illusions of being able to compete with the serious bench rest guys, but I have never lost a deer of the 30 or so I have harvested at ranges up to 300 yards. Point of this post however is a rather funny and odd story:
I had just purchased a Winchester Model 70 in .243 Win. and was working up hand loads for it since it wouldn't shout factory fodder worth a darn.
I had loaded up some fouling loads with surplus Hodgen 4831 that I bought at the local gun store for around 79 cents a pound. The store scooped it out of a 50 pound barrel into a paper sack and you walked out with your sack of powder. Time was around 1965 when I was a student at North Texas State University.
I loaded up several combinations of powders and weights to test at the local range using the powders then recommended as best for the .243 Win. Probably had 50 rounds total using three powders.
For the fouling shots I just filled up the case with 47.5 grains of the cheap $.79 surplus H4831. The grain weight was derived by selecting the powder volume where the base of the bullet was just touching the top of the powder charge without compression.
At the range I fired the five fouling shots and then started on my carefully weighed test loads with the "appropriate" powders.
Can you imagine my surprise when I walked up to the 100 yard targets and found the best group (around 3/4 inch as I recall) came from my fouling loads!
The vast majority of those 30 deer have been shot with that same .243 using H4831. For some strange reason my .243 just loves the slower powders and won't shoot worth a darn with the medium ones.
When new shooters on the handloading forum ask for suggested trial loads, I usually chip in and suggest that they try at least one slow powder.
FWIW my varmint & coyote loads were H4831 behind a 75 grain Sierra HP while my deer loads were either H4831 or IMR4350 behind a 100 grain Nosler partition.
I guess the moral of the above is do not be afraid to try different bullet weights and cartridge brands in your rifles. Perhaps you too will find an "odd" load that your rifle just loves.
I had just purchased a Winchester Model 70 in .243 Win. and was working up hand loads for it since it wouldn't shout factory fodder worth a darn.
I had loaded up some fouling loads with surplus Hodgen 4831 that I bought at the local gun store for around 79 cents a pound. The store scooped it out of a 50 pound barrel into a paper sack and you walked out with your sack of powder. Time was around 1965 when I was a student at North Texas State University.
I loaded up several combinations of powders and weights to test at the local range using the powders then recommended as best for the .243 Win. Probably had 50 rounds total using three powders.
For the fouling shots I just filled up the case with 47.5 grains of the cheap $.79 surplus H4831. The grain weight was derived by selecting the powder volume where the base of the bullet was just touching the top of the powder charge without compression.
At the range I fired the five fouling shots and then started on my carefully weighed test loads with the "appropriate" powders.
Can you imagine my surprise when I walked up to the 100 yard targets and found the best group (around 3/4 inch as I recall) came from my fouling loads!
The vast majority of those 30 deer have been shot with that same .243 using H4831. For some strange reason my .243 just loves the slower powders and won't shoot worth a darn with the medium ones.
When new shooters on the handloading forum ask for suggested trial loads, I usually chip in and suggest that they try at least one slow powder.
FWIW my varmint & coyote loads were H4831 behind a 75 grain Sierra HP while my deer loads were either H4831 or IMR4350 behind a 100 grain Nosler partition.
I guess the moral of the above is do not be afraid to try different bullet weights and cartridge brands in your rifles. Perhaps you too will find an "odd" load that your rifle just loves.
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reynolds357 said:Sometimes these miraculous groups are luck. An excellent shooter and an excellent gun had a bit of luck. I remember Bart pointing out one time that most records had a card before and a card after that were very average.
I imagine those "average" cards were "average" relative to other good benchrest shooters.
Also, while there's luck involved, the rest of the story is that skill helps the statistics tremendously. The odds of Joe Average Weekend Shooter shooting a world record group with any given number of rounds are a lot less than those for Joe Pro.
Don Fischer
New member
I have never gotten the hang of shooting from a kneeling or sitting position myself. My favorite is prone with a bipod or sling and standing is a close second. I try to only use a bench when I want to isolate the gun and ammo from my technique. My load development sessions are shot from a bench with a bipod or rest as appropriate, but my fun and competition is prone
I don't see anything to get the hang of. In each position the platform you make with your body changes. Off hand the platform is two feet on the ground, Kneeling it's one knee and one foot on the ground but the whole frame is lowered, your shooting hand is supported by a knee. Sitting your feet are on the ground with your butt and elbows supported by the knees. Prone the whole body is on the ground and the platform is as solid as you can get. My guess is if you have much trouble with any position, you have not released the stress in your lower back. It will show up very easy. Gt the sight you want then close your eye's and take a couple breath's. Open your eye's and see where your gun is pointing. If you releaved the stress, it will be pointing to the same place. In any position move your body a bit back toward the aiming point, magic!