Winning the Pro-2nd fight in order

M

madison46

New member
to protect our freedom to own firearms. On a thread just closed by the moderater, a fictional story was posted about how 'They would confiscate your Guns(sic)'. A poster, Glen, made the following post(Glen, hope you don't mind):
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The greatest problem is that the RKBA cause doesn't have a coherent strategy plan to convice the general public that the right must be protected.
The NRA spends much time trying to raise money from the believers, that's nice but it must try to increase the believer base and expand from a perceived enclave of conservative, white males and their mates.

Laws suits based on the 2nd Amend are fine if we don't lose the big one.

CCW laws are great as they make more folk to take an active decision to own firearms for protection. That is ideologically way different from ducky hunting.

This will insult some but messages based on the UN is coming, protection from foreign invasion just don't cut it. Preaching armed revolution is not going to happen. Also if it came to that - all of you own this board who have exposed that statement are busted very quickly.

Unless you win the minds of the general public, all else is fantasy.

You may hide your guns but you will be like some dude hiding his or her drugs or kiddie porn. Despised by the public and a criminal when discovered.

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My question, is, what would be the aspects of a "coherent strategy plan to convice the general public that the right must be protected"?

If there are 80+million gun owners, what could help us reach them or move them to action?

Looking for some thoughts.

madison
 
Both Glen and Madison are making a great point (one that i completely missed in a previous post.)

Perhaps what must be done is to raise the comfort level of the general person around guns. We all feel very much 'at home' with our guns all around us; we need more people to be comfortable like this.

Perhaps what must be done is to re-assert the firearm in 'pop culture' in a way that doesn't promote crime, or violence.

We need to show people that firearms are for families on an afternoon of fun at the trap range. We need to show people that firearms are handy to keep close by on an overnight trek into the back country, just incase the local lion is prowling.

How do we do this? Open up a resturant?



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~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
 
Get someone with a NY or Boston Accent on to talk about the lies that have been both perpetrated by the Anti's and the Pro's.

Wayne is a boob, he stutters and mouths his foot everytime the question arises.

We, gun people, are described as uneducated, unrefined, evil, aggressive non-people who think nothing of beating our kids in Wal-Mart with closed fists wearing shirts with food stains partially tucked into tattered pants that do not reach down to our dirty feet.

First, we portray a positive image of a gun owner- Chucky Heston is not doing it. Everyday working man, caring mother, lawyers, doctors, engineers (ME :) ) and teachers.

There is a certain "cool" factor with shooting a gun. We need to portray that as a healthy impulse and not let people continue to equate that with public masterbation. Most people can see that after shooting, gun require a certain amount of interaction for them to fire- except for the lady that was shot in the a$$ by the CCW carrying his gun in his pant pocket two weeks ago.

Third, we emphasize the positive aspects of gun ownership, not the paranoia of BATF (we know it is true) coming to take us away to re-education camps. Positives are iterated ad-nauseum in this BB. It should be easy to pick a universal set.

Fourth, gun owners have to continue acting responsibly with fire arms. Hearing about idiots getting drunk and shooting their TV's, and that loser that shot his nut$ off make me ill and brings Janet and Hilliary closer to my mailbox. We laugh about Darwinism, but those who do not know that guns are not evil yet, think that it was the GUN that did it.

Fifth, people living in a certain area should get together monthly for a dinner at a public place and comingle and get to know each other. When the number starts to grow- as it will over curiosity- even non-gunners (notice I did not say anti's) would see us in public and notice that we are not liquor'd and beating our wives 'cause they up an stole our last chaws.

Sixth- minorities need to be part of our movement. Regardless of personal prejudices, whether against: women, men, gays, straights, blacks, whites, latino, and those damned italians (me ;) ). Look at what Tiger did for golf.

Some ititial ideas, I look forward to seeing what others are out there.

I personally think the NRA is not going to change, too much lethargy and too much money for Wayne. More grassroots should be actively developing. When they are ready, disolve the NRA. Who knows, they may be worth joining if they started reacting to our dissatisfaction.
Third, we

[This message has been edited by hube1236 (edited July 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by hube1236 (edited July 25, 2000).]
 
It seems that there are two valid approaches. One, being that guns are family oriented fun vs guns are criminally dangerous and the second, that firearms are a freedom/responsibility issue as opposed to "big brother knows best".

Possibly the majority of most Americans, certaintly most of the urban ones, have never come into contact with firearms in a positive way if they have ever come into contact with firearms at all. City folks are the ones who face the most amount of crime and therefore, most of the negative aspects of firearms in our society.

It is abvious to those of us who are older and have been involved with firearms for a long time that most of the "gun problems" are really about our culture and not guns.

Otherwise they would have surfaced long ago when guns were available by mailorder, kids went hunting or shooting after school, high schools and colleges had shooting teams and the like.

How do we cut through the "clutter" of the media and goverment bias and what message do we send? "It's the culture stupid!" comes to mind as someone who is frustrated over the whole mess but it's not a "positive" way of getting to the point. I think that the NRA "restuarant" idea isn't a bad one. Judging from the howls from the gun bigots and gun racists it must have some merit or they wouldn't be so upset.

It is a truism of marketing and advertising that "Perception is reality" in other words it doesn't matter what the truth really is, it's what people believe that counts.

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"The more perfect
civilisation is, the less occasion has it for government." Thomas Paine The Rights of Man 1792
 
USP45,

I wonder what would be the outcry if a organization, or group of organizations, say some shooting clubs - sponsored by the NRA, held some free, hands on shoots at local ranges. Perhaps a Family day at the range. advertise it in the paper. NRA certified instructors on site. Perhaps driving home the fact that it can be fun, a family affair, and that one should be familiar enough to know how a firearm works - at least which end the bullet comes out. This could serve multiple purposes- get some non-gunowners around gunowners. That way they can see we are safety aware and just normal law abiding folks. Also make them realize a firearm is a hunk of metal without someone behind it.
Some .22's could be provided by local stores or manufacturers.

Just some ramblings.

Are Boy Scouts still taught how to shoot?

madison
 
Note: I think the "I'm the NRA" campaign with Carl Malone, Tom Selleck etc.. was pretty good. But if they are only in NRA mags, it isn't reaching others. Something like that, started in some other mags - popular science would be helpful. Winchester prompting a Father and son shooting an old lever action as advertisement for one of their rifles would do well in some of these Backpacker/Outdoor Life mags.

Make it fun again.

madison
 
My plan for world Domination:

The NRA has become a creature incapable of change. And whether or not it can change, it would be too hard to change the Public's opinion of the NRA. Does this mean it's role is dead? Hell no, It's the Bad Cop.

The Good Cop is the New Organization. First it needs a good name, built by committee to affect the most people positively. I.E "American's for Fuzzy Bunnies and Guns", "Protect America". This is the new warm and fuzzy soccer mom club. We don't use the 2nd Amendment argument anymore. We approach it like the MADD group, and we call ourselves the "true followers" of the MADD approach.
(Not legislation of vehicles or alcohol, but strict punishment). Every Spokesperson is hand chosen, no body says ANYTHING unless it's party line. No Heston on TV being Moses, but Barbara Billingsley playing the Beaver's Mom. "Ward, The Beaver wants a gun. Will you teach him to be responsible and safe with it?"

Finally this Organization should NEVER go after anyone. That's the NRA's job. This group needs to be seen as the Real grassroots cause, looking for safer playgrounds and the right to defend ones self. Minorities should be the main stay and every time a Bill is moved against a better solution should be shown, not just a "We don't like it so it goes" attitude. Other Self-Defense issues need to be used such as Rape Prevention, Sex offenders, and habitual criminals. Truth in Sentencing. All the ideas that would work beside gun control need to be followed. Other Groups like HCI, MMM, et al need to be marginalized as "Single Issue" fanatics who only care about guns, not crime or the causes of crime. A nice warm fuzzy liberal slant here would be good too.

My 1/50 of a dollar.


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Go Ugly Early.

AD HOMINEM; Helping Morons argue since 1549!!!
 
I'm glad you posted that statement again, Madison. I see some great ideas taking shape here.

My "ought-two" would include Cowboy Action Shooting. They really focused on it on the last American Shooter that I saw. I've really never paid it that much attention, but after seeing that program, it looks like it would be a lot of fun to attend, watch, and participate.

The problem is that most non-gunners (I didn't say anti's either) won't actively go out to see something like this. They need to be made interested in it first. How do we do that, you ask? The Media.

The Media drives public opinion these days, there's no disputing that. What is it that the media is giving this thirsty public? "Survivor", "Greed", "Who wants to be a millionare", etc.

I would love to see a shooting game show.

Some Random Ideas: Real people, real guns, real bullets = a whole lot of fun. Stress safety, something new every show. Set up a course, like in action shooting and have at it. It could even be indoors, with a live studio audience. Popularize skeet and trap. Have a kids division. Have a ladies division...better yet, have men and women go head to head and show that this is a sport where men and women are true equals.

It's gotta be done on TV, though; and not on TNN either. What are the chances? :(

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Except for Hamilton County until August 11th.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
Media is good AND necessary. I also said non-gunowner and not 'anti'. Most of them are against guns just because they are guns. It's the 21st Century version of the 20th Century 'Outlaw War' movement - that failed if they haven't noticed. (I'm getting off topic)

Media. That is why I suggested the "I'm the NRA" type ads going in mags other than NRA's mags and gun mags. Start with the outdoor mags. Who doesn't like a Texas Ranger?? or Karl Malone (beside my Sacramento Kings) or Tom Selleck.

Also, a free shoot for families advertised in the papers. City dwellers could get a chance to plink or target shoot.

Your idea would do wonders. Inside skeet/trap. The mere fact it was indoors would amaze some folks. As for me, an ad saying, 'Can You Beat This Grouping', as a challenge is some other type of show or local club. Would be a challenge to some. Show them the sport it would (yoda talk).

I don't like the idea of abandoning the 2nd Argument. Americans, illeterate or not on history, do not like to toy with the first ten Amendments. If they did, we would have an Amendment banning flag burning and a bunch of other nonsense.

I also think the legal arguments are on our side if history must be investigated to find out the intent of the Framers. If some short and powerful point making essay referencing our legal stand on the 2nd, would be powerful as well. 'The 2nd Amendment Primer' is just TOO long for our media culture. :-)

NRA, GAO et al would do well to offer free membership from now until October 1. Maybe get those 'tweener' gun owners a little more motivated to spread the word around. More there are the more the social 'stigma' gets lessened.

Cowboy shoot would be great.

Just more of my ramblings. Hope opnions keep coming.

madison

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheBluesMan:
I'm glad you posted that statement again, Madison. I see some great ideas taking shape here.

My "ought-two" would include Cowboy Action Shooting. They really focused on it on the last American Shooter that I saw. I've really never paid it that much attention, but after seeing that program, it looks like it would be a lot of fun to attend, watch, and participate.

The problem is that most non-gunners (I didn't say anti's either) won't actively go out to see something like this. They need to be made interested in it first. How do we do that, you ask? The Media.

The Media drives public opinion these days, there's no disputing that. What is it that the media is giving this thirsty public? "Survivor", "Greed", "Who wants to be a millionare", etc.

I would love to see a shooting game show.

Some Random Ideas: Real people, real guns, real bullets = a whole lot of fun. Stress safety, something new every show. Set up a course, like in action shooting and have at it. It could even be indoors, with a live studio audience. Popularize skeet and trap. Have a kids division. Have a ladies division...better yet, have men and women go head to head and show that this is a sport where men and women are true equals.

It's gotta be done on TV, though; and not on TNN either. What are the chances? :(

[/quote]



[This message has been edited by madison46 (edited July 26, 2000).]
 
While I certainly like the idea of improving our image, and we _do_ need to do some image-enhancement, promoting the idea of shooting being fun isn't going to stop the tide. After all, it's fun, but why not have some "common sense" laws to further regulate that fun? Exposing non-gun owners to firearms usually dispels the "gun shoots itself" idea.
Having celebrities talk about the shooting sports polishes the image of gun owners. And getting the citizens who successfully defended themselves onto the airwaves is also crucial. We need a multi-pronged approach:
shooting can be safe, shooting can be fun,
shooting can be a family sport, and shooting can save your life. Maybe we need a separate voice to point out the political posturing being done by those who advocate new laws.

Damn, this is a tough road.


Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
There are great ideas here, but I think they view the gun issue as being more isolated than it actually is. Guns are inherently tied to the individual-responsibility/freedoms versus collective safety issue. If you believe in collective safety then no toy, however much fun it is, is worth even the slightest risk to the safety of the collective. Guns have to be argued as a right and responsibility of a free individual.

I am babbling on like this because, as much as these are great ideas, I think they are meaningless unless we take on the overriding issue of America's view of the free individual versus the collective.

I see education as the first, most critical step. We must end public education, or at least Unionized education. The children must be tought by people who believe in individual responsibilities and freedoms. Make control of schools as local as possible.

After education would come the media. It has to follow education because the media only sells people what they want to see. After 40+ years of liberal dumming-down and collectivism in our schools, the Rosie O'Donnels are only selling the insecure and frightened Americans what they want to see.

Sorry if this seems off-topic. I realize that there are a wide variety of viewpoints on this board and that guns are, in many cases, the only thing that unite us. I think, however, that these other social issues set the framework for our gun freedoms, and without them we have no hope.

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Brady
(No relation to that $%#$ bill)
 
My club already does a field day. We pull out all the weapons and people get to come shoot and see the good side of guns. We have skeet/trap, rifle and pistol. We set it up so it's fun for everyone. Kids shoot .22's while dad is on the other end of the line letting loose with a 50cal. It's a great way to get the community involved. Being one of the younger members I get to work with the kids and the .22 rifle. Some of the older guys can't stay prone for 8 hrs.

It's not the answer but it's a start. If you belong to a club try to get them involved.


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"Some people spend an entire liftime wondering if they made a difference. Marines don't have that problem."
Semper Fi
 
Take non-shooters shooting. Get involved with the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and other youth groups to get young people exposed to healthy gun-related activites. Every non-shooter I have taken to the range has ended up having a ball! Take them plnking and they love it even more. Just be responsible and cleanup after the plinking session...don't add to the "gun slob" image. There's thousands of young men and women over 18 that can vote and have not yet formed hard-line opinions on the issue...get them out to shoot, and it beats a video game all to hell! Just a thought.
 
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