Winchester model 12 issue

A

AndyAdams

Inactive
I am a newbie to this site, and although I checked the forum, found no question/answer thread on my problem. Hope someone can give me some advice on why my model 12 .16 gauge pump shotgun has developed the following issue, and perhaps how to resolve it.

The gun was made in 1916. It was my Grandad's shotgun, and my first gun. (He fought in France during WWI. I grew up using it for squirrels, dove, and quail and it is the most important gun I own, or will eve rown, and I want to pass it on to my boy in the same usable condition I got it in, so please bear with me. I know people are not supposed to re-blue90 pluse year old guns, but I believed in preserving metal).

So anyway, I had the gun re-blued by a very good gunsmith 35 years ago for my son and put it in the gun cabinet. Recently, I noticed when I tried dry firing the gun and working the slide, after the bolt locks up, and the trigger is pulled while dry firing, in order to work the slide again, the slide has to be pushed a slight bit forward before the action can be cycle.

When I used to use the gun for hunting forty years ago, it was one of the fastest cycling pump shotguns I had ever used. Any feed back as to what part needs replacement would be very much appreciated.
 
Actually, that is normal for any model 12. That is what keeps the bolt locked when firing, and when it recoils, the reward force really does the same thing, as you hold onto the forearm, so the gun can be pumped quick over it. There is a spring on the magazine tube that keeps the forearm pushed back, so that is how it supposed to work. You wont notice that when firing a round.
 
FrankenMauser, When they named the model 12 the perfect repeater, I would have to agree whole heartedly. That feature is imitated today in the Mossberg 500, and I think a few others such as High Standard-JC Higgins pumps. The 31 Remington had another type of spring gimmick, but worked similar with friction keeping the action button from unlatching.
 
Ah the model 12, in my opinion the best pump shotgun ever made and many old duck hunters will agree.
I have one in 12 ga. that was 100 years old last year.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
 
Learned something new today.

My Model 12 is a baby compared to yours. My dad bought his at a farm sale when he got back from WWII. I should get it re-blued.
 
Ah the model 12, in my opinion the best pump shotgun ever made and many old duck hunters will agree.
Click to expand...
I prefer the Model 25. Simpler. Lighter. But running many of the same parts, and operating under exactly the same principles.

...But there is a Model 12 that lives right next to the M25 in my safe. They're separated by 3 inches and 27 years.
 
Thanks guys

I just got a chance to check back in. Thank all you guys for your input. That puts my mind at ease, that the lockup is normal. I had not fired it as I was concerned. I have five other shotguns, but I don't really feel like I'm bird or squirrel hunting unless I have that old (very) friend in my hands.
Again guys, many thanks!
 
FrankenMauser,

The model 12 was designed at the time, when city dwellers liked to catch trains to the country for a bit of hunting, and the takedown feature was a big thing, so it would fit in a case similar to a suitcase. The model 25 is essentially the same gun, less the takedown feature. It cost a little less over it, but the gun is just as good.

The takedown mechanism was actually designed for the Winchester lever rifles, and the 1893 and 1897 by an earlier Winchester designer, William Mason. Thomas C Johnson incorporated it into the model 12. The late 1800's and early 1900's was big on takedown, as Hepburn had similar designs for Marlin. Even the old Winchester model 11 widow-maker was takedown at the frame, as were all their pump and semi-auto rifles.
 
40 plus years ago, my 16th birthday present was a won at auction Winchester Model 12. Field grade, 30" full choke. Gun was made about 1922. I am also the custodian of my Grandfather's Ithaca, which he bought in 1909, so I understand about how special they are, and our responsibilities to pass them on in the family.

The "have to push forward" is normal for the Model 12. Most folks don't realize it, because a firm grip on the forend during firing usually takes care of this.

I would recommend you make sure your son understands the gun before you pass it on. Is he aware that the old model 12s do not have a disconnector? Its something important if all he's ever used is modern designs with disconnectors. My little brother learned that lesson the hard way, back in the 70s, fortunately, missing his foot by inches!
 
Not that it merely lacks a disconnect, it was purposely designed to bump fire. The hammer is held back by the trip sear, which trips only when the bolt is fully locked up. It is similar to a machine gun.

Disabling the trigger disconnect won't make a gun bump fire. The hammer just follows down when the gun is pumped.

Having to push the forearm before it can be pumped back is a mechanism to slow down the action unlocking after firing. It makes sure the action unlocks when the chamber pressure has dropped below safe level. It is also called de-squirreling.

A few other designs did away with this mechanism. One of them is Winchester 1300, which has the speed pump feature. Seemingly the gun can be pumped as soon as the hammer drops. But they use other delay mechanism to de-squirrel.

-TL
 
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44 AMP,

The model 12 had a hammer hook made onto the action button lever. As long as the button was pressed in, to pump the gun, the hook held the hammer from falling. However, as soon as the bolt was fully forward, it was locked, and the button dropped back to normal, the hook cleared the hammer, and it would fire if the trigger was depressed.

This is why it was beloved, since it would fire as soon as it was pumped forward, and the trigger held down. Winchesters exhibition shooter, Herb Parsons, took advantage of this feature many times. They said he could shoot one as fast as any semi-auto made.
 
Parsons could start with an empty gun, throw a half dozen clay pigeons in the air, and break them all before the last one hit the ground!

It's possible he was faster than a semi auto! I've seen a guy do that trick with a Benelli semi, but it was already loaded.

Besides the hold the trigger back and pump away feature, I think model 12s were beloved for a certain beauty and grace, and for being "hell for stout". If there is a more ruggedly dependable action, I don't know what it is.
 
44 AMP

Regarding your little brother I am glad he didn't get hurt. When you say magazine disconnect, I know what one is on a Browning Hi Power. Are you saying since the Model 12 doesn't have one, some of the younger foks think if there are no shells in the magazine, but one in the barrel, some folks believe the shell in battery won't fire? Heck, I guess I'm showin my age or my ignorance, but I have never heard about a mag disconnect in a shotgun.

Does a shotgun mag disconnect in particular models disallow one round being fired if no shells are in the magazine tube, or am I totally misunderstanding the issue about a shotgun mag disconnect?
 
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